WI: UK sues for Peace in WWII

So, the United Kingdom has surrendered to Nazi Germany, lets say late 1941. After Russia but before America enters the war.

No it was not sealion. But the British airfields and factories have been destroyed faster then they could be repaired and the luftwaffe control the skies.

Over all WHY they surrender isnt the most important part.

What happens after the surrender? Will German still declare war on the USA? With no longer having a Western Front at all will Germany be able to focus on the USSR and win in the east? What happens to the Europe under a Pax Germania? Who rules Britain after "independence" is granted? How long untill the resistance forces crumble? Will Fascist Britain go after Ireland? Will German bring Spain and Portugal into their sphere? Will Germany finish uniting the German speaking peoples with an invasion and conquest of Switzerland, what about the German speakers in North Italy? Finally, will a British Government in exile form in Canada or the USA and continue on the war?
 
The BEF goes down and then its quite possible the Churchill government goes as well, but what happens is not going to be a surrender as you are discussing more of a... well we need to have an armistice to save our Empire and we know you can't actually invade us so lets make peace.

In which case Germany gets is colonies back from WW1 and maybe at most the Suez coming under joint German/Italian/English occupation.
 
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This is quite a difficult one, as I just can't see how you can force a British surrender without either Sealion or a massive (and I mean really massive) strategic bombing campaign. Both of which are well into ASB territory without some pretty major PODs in the early to mid 1930s. Having said that, if a much more effective U-boat campaign could isolate the UK, then you might be on to something, but bear in mind that if U-boats are more of a problem, then even more resources are going to be put into the battle of the Atlantic, even at the expense of other theatres.

If the UK is brought to the negotiating table (and it would be a negotiated settlement, not an unconditional surrender), then I wouldn't expect concessions to be made outside of mainland Europe. The Suez canal will remain under British control (the Italians might object, but I can't see Hitler passing up the opportunity to make peace with the UK and free up all those resources for the Eastern Front just because Mussolini isn't happy). I don't think Hitler would want any of the previous colonies in Africa or the Pacific, not when he's looking at taking over most of Europe).

One side-effect would be that the situation with France would change. Any peace treaty is likely to make Versailles look fair and reasonable by comparison, but equally I can't see that the Germans would have any interest in occupying Northern France, or holding all those prisoners of war (not when they could return to France and work in factories and mines, producing stuff of use to Germany to be given to them as reparations). Similarly, with the UK out of the picture, then you're likely to see peace treaties with places like Norway, Belgium, and the Netherlands (although the various governments in exile may choose to carry on, although they'd probably have to find somewhere else to operate from, maybe the USA?)
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
(although the various governments in exile may choose to carry on, although they'd probably have to find somewhere else to operate from, maybe the USA?)
Not necessarily. The British might simply recognize the Nazi-dominated governments officially and then unofficially allow the governments-in-exile to continue operating in London. That's what they did with the Polish government-in-exile between 1945 and 1989, IOTL.
 
Depending on what reparations would be required to end the war, the UK and Commonwealth will possibly be in a much better financial position then they ended up in, even if they continue to modernise their armed forces in the thought that the war will continue.

The catch being what happens if either side goes for round two.
 
A note: ‘Suing of peace’ is not the same as ‘surrendering’.
This is very important. Surrender is usually "we have no options left" whereas suing for peace is "right we're sick of this, we're listening, what do you want?"
 

Nietzsche

Banned
The BEF goes down and then its quite possible the Churchill government goes as well, but what happens is not going to be a surrender as you are discussing more of a... well we need to have an armistice to save our Empire and we know you can't actually invade us so lets make peace.

In which case Germany gets is colonies back from WW1 and maybe at most the Suez coming under joint German/Italian/English occupation.
Hahahahaha. No. With what Navy will the Germans enforce that with?
 
Hahahahaha. No. With what Navy will the Germans enforce that with?
[2]

Germany was in absolutely no position to demand their colonies back, nor did Hitler and the Nazis ever want them. The closest they wanted is Madagascar to shove all the Jews to.
 

Nietzsche

Banned
[2]

Germany was in absolutely no position to demand their colonies back, nor did Hitler and the Nazis ever want them. The closest they wanted is Madagascar to shove all the Jews to.
Even that was a fig-leaf. The Madagascar plan was never seriously considered, not by the individuals involved in the upper echelons of the Reich.

Anyway, Germany can want as much as it pleases. Without an airforce capable of controlling the seas, or a fleet so great and mighty that it would make Poseidon himself tremble, they're not getting anything beyond the beaches of Festung Europa.
 
Hahahahaha. No. With what Navy will the Germans enforce that with?
If the BEF is gone Spain will enter the war on the side of the Axis and Turkey is apt to do so as well. Yugoslavia certainly wouldn't flip either. There will be uprisings as well across the entire British Empire as they pull everything they have in the colonies to protect England itself from attack. Britain would seem to the whole world like a weak and collapsing Empire and in late 1940 if the terms you think I described are laughable just think about what will happen to the British Empire in the year and a half from the Fall of France to the U.S. entering the war.
 

Nietzsche

Banned
If the BEF is gone Spain will enter the war on the side of the Axis and Turkey is apt to do so as well. There will be uprisings as well across the entire British Empire as they pull everything they have in the colonies to protect England itself from attack.
...No. That's painfully ASB. Spain can't enter the war, it doesn't have the manpower or material to do anything. Turkey isn't joining the Axis, either, especially not when they're making money off of both sides.

Britain would seem to the whole world like a weak and collapsing Empire and in late 1940 if the terms you think I described are laughable just look at what will happen to the British Empire in the year and a half from the Fall of France to the U.S. entering the war.
And all of that doesn't mean anything, because the Germans are incapable of enforcing a peace beyond Europe. Even assuming your flights of fancy in regards to uprisings in the Empire are doable, it isn't going to be enough to threaten the war effort. The Royal Navy is too powerful a force, and too independent to be laid low by the things you've mentioned.
 
...No. That's painfully ASB. Spain can't enter the war, it doesn't have the manpower or material to do anything. Turkey isn't joining the Axis, either, especially not when they're making money off of both sides.

And all of that doesn't mean anything, because the Germans are incapable of enforcing a peace beyond Europe. Even assuming your flights of fancy in regards to uprisings in the Empire are doable, it isn't going to be enough to threaten the war effort. The Royal Navy is too powerful a force, and too independent to be laid low by the things you've mentioned.
With what troops will Britain defend her Empire against uprisings everywhere and against all the threats they face? The British navy relies on a army to protect its Empire from uprisings and foreign threats and in such a timeline they are going to be scrapping the bottom of the barrel from their entire Empire to defend England itself. Turkey will know that as will Spain.

Germany doesn't have to enforce anything here. If England doesn't make peace with them they can sit back and watch their Empire fall apart from its enemies within and without. The most Germany would have to do to help is provide military assistance to take Gibraltar and a few other hardened targets. Personally, I actually don't actually think Hitler would likely ask for joint occupation of the Suez canal by the way.
 
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With what troops will Britain defend her Empire against uprisings everywhere and against all the threats they face? The British navy relies on a army to protect its Empire from uprisings and foreign threats and in such a timeline they are going to be scrapping the bottom of the barrel from their entire Empire to defend England itself. Turkey will know that as will Spain.

Germany doesn't have to enforce anything here. If England doesn't make peace with them they can sit back and watch their Empire fall apart from its enemies within and without. The most Germany would have to do to help is provide military assistance to take Gibraltar and a few other hardened targets. Personally, I actually don't actually think Hitler would likely ask for joint occupation of the Suez canal by the way.
most people seem to think because Germany can't invade Britain, they can't win. True it is unlikely but no country is going to let itself get bombed into the middle ages and starve to death. This requires a POD that may prevent Hitler from rising, but if said POD doesn't and the luftwaffe destroys britain than their empire is all of the sudden stronger than them and really has no need for britain anymore. The RN was strong, but can do nothing against a total collapse caused by starvation and bankruptcy.

Now i'm drunk so take what i say with a grain of salt because what i meant to say probably cam out rong but the point is with enough bombs and u-boats fucking up britains economy they won't be able to fight a war.

Their empire tho, might remain united and continue the fight Free British style but until the US joins the war or Russia begins its push for berlin its possible to beat britain; tho only within europe.
 

elkarlo

Banned
most people seem to think because Germany can't invade Britain, they can't win. True it is unlikely but no country is going to let itself get bombed into the middle ages and starve to death. This requires a POD that may prevent Hitler from rising, but if said POD doesn't and the luftwaffe destroys britain than their empire is all of the sudden stronger than them and really has no need for britain anymore. The RN was strong, but can do nothing against a total collapse caused by starvation and bankruptcy.

Now i'm drunk so take what i say with a grain of salt because what i meant to say probably cam out rong but the point is with enough bombs and u-boats fucking up britains economy they won't be able to fight a war.

Their empire tho, might remain united and continue the fight Free British style but until the US joins the war or Russia begins its push for berlin its possible to beat britain; tho only within europe.

There was a thread about the BoB, if the Germans bomber Manchester enough, they might have won the war. They need to war game that already
 

King Thomas

Banned
The German strike on Russia takes Leningrad and Moscow and Stalingrad, but either the US nukes Germany in 1945/1946, or by 1950 the Red Army breaks through, trashes Germany and takes all Western Europe.
 

Kongzilla

Banned
It would be difficult to bring britain to peace, but not impossible, the BEF needs to go. This could Lead to Italian victory in Africa during the early stages due to a lack of troops there for the British to defend. Uprising's are a possibility but not necessary.

During the BoB Hitler may not order bombing of Historical monuments and what not to undermine the Morale of the British if he thinks a loss of their entire army is enough and continues to bomb the Airfields and such. This can lead to the Luftwaffe controlling Southern England.

Suddenly 2/3 parts of the British Military are defeated or unable to counter the Germans. Churchill is probably outed and Britain is co-erced into signing the Anti-Comitern pact. If the Germans don't take anything from the British, then I could see a Division or two formed from Volunteers being sent to Russia.

This has some effects on the Eastern Front and the Pacific. The Soviets will be more prepared for the Axis but to counter the Axis will have at least a million more troops to spare if Troops from France, Spain and other nations that can be convinced to join in the war send men and support. I think it could swing either way as Lend Lease from Britain isn't going to the Soviets but it will probably end up the same way it did as OTL or it could end differently. Not sure.

In the Pacific, with Britain no longer busy with a war in Europe or Africa then Japan may reconsider attacking their colonies unless they took them in 1940 like they took over French Indochina. They'll still attack America and it will end the same, maybe a year early.

The German strike on Russia takes Leningrad and Moscow and Stalingrad, but either the US nukes Germany in 1945/1946
The USA doesn't have a bomber with a Range Long enough to reach Germany without Britain.
 
This could Lead to Italian victory in Africa during the early stages due to a lack of troops there for the British to defend.
Doubtful, Britain had a total of 36,000 troops, a figure including both front-line soldiers and support and administration units. The major limitation on the Italians was their own horrendous logistics more than anything the British could throw at them.

During the BoB Hitler may not order bombing of Historical monuments and what not to undermine the Morale of the British if he thinks a loss of their entire army is enough and continues to bomb the Airfields and such. This can lead to the Luftwaffe controlling Southern England.
Where "control" is having to tie up significant portions of your forces just to keep the enemy from recovering.

NO, IMO the best chance the Germans had for getting rid of the British was the U-Boats, a greater focus there early on could lead to to Britain having to call it quits due to starvation.
 

Pomphis

Banned
Similarly, with the UK out of the picture, then you're likely to see peace treaties with places like Norway, Belgium, and the Netherlands
In the Pacific, with Britain no longer busy with a war in Europe or Africa then Japan may reconsider attacking their colonies unless they took them in 1940 like they took over French Indochina. They'll still attack America and it will end the same, maybe a year early.
Peace with the netherlands will likely include peace with the dutch east indies, which may result in no oil embargo, which means that there is no reason to attack the US.
 
Doubtful, Britain had a total of 36,000 troops, a figure including both front-line soldiers and support and administration units. The major limitation on the Italians was their own horrendous logistics more than anything the British could throw at them.
Think that was before any troops from Aus, NZ and SA got there. Italy was always going to lose in North Africa with out German help.
 
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