Faeelin
Banned
I don't know if that's that great. The Qing didn't have a naval force the way the Ottomans did and had to try to borrow one from the Dutch.
WI: The Qing accept the independence of Zheng family's maritime empire
- Thread starter Intransigent Southerner
- Start date
The population of Tungning was roughly 200,000 to 300,000. The population of the Manchu Empire was more than 100,000,000.
Faeelin
Banned
I am aware of the population disparity. But again, the Qing had to try to borrow someone else's navy to seize the island.
Maybe Ragusa is a better analogy?
They don't need to. Tungning' lack of population is fatal.It wasn't even a self sufficient state.IIRC,once the Manchus evacuated the coasts and left the Zheng smuggling business in ruins,the Zhengs couldn't even feed their military forces--that's when their soldiers already had to farm for their own food.
As for borrowing Dutch ships,I'm not sure the Manchus borrowed Dutch ships,they just bought Dutch artillery.
Once the Manchus started funding a navy under Zheng defectors,Tungning was screwed.The Manchu naval forces were far more superior in both numbers and in equipment.
Faeelin
Banned
This was true in 1664, but it wasn't true by the 1670s. The island was producing almost a hundred thousand tons of rice by then, while still increasing production of sugarcane.
I love the idea - especially if it becomes increasingly powerful - more Chinese immigrants, more trade, etc.
The big doozey, in my mind - is what happens when the Qing Dynasty collapses. The Zheng Dynasty might well decide to come home, which could be terrifying. Imperialist Capitalist China anyone?
Plus, if they (in the intervening years) play the "Anti-European, Pro-East Asian" approach, and manage to soothe some of the divisions, they could easily become one of the great nightmares for European East Indian Companies.
I'm imagining a Taiwan-based "Co-prosperity Sphere" sort of Empire here.
The big doozey, in my mind - is what happens when the Qing Dynasty collapses. The Zheng Dynasty might well decide to come home, which could be terrifying. Imperialist Capitalist China anyone?
Plus, if they (in the intervening years) play the "Anti-European, Pro-East Asian" approach, and manage to soothe some of the divisions, they could easily become one of the great nightmares for European East Indian Companies.
I'm imagining a Taiwan-based "Co-prosperity Sphere" sort of Empire here.
I think Tungning can coexist with Qing although they need to temporarily revoke their claims to the Chinese throne..they did coexist with Middag, we could have Middag and Tungning coexist in taiwan..
The Zheng family fought bitter wars with Middag and greatly contributed to the chiefdom's total collapse under Qing rule.
I think Tungning might be a push and pull the Tribes of Taiwan to unite under middag..
Faeelin
Banned
The Qing didn't manage this, why would this happen now?
Here's a question; what's the effect of a Zheng conquest of Manila in the 1670s?
I think for this to happen, the Spanish need to be weakened by a succesful Maniago-Almazan-Malong revolt, I think the revolt could ally with Koxinga creating a state in the South which has a chinese elite..I think Manila is the best place for a chinese city state...once the new Maniago-Almazan-Malong revolt expels the chinese from Northern Luzon to there they could flock there, why? the people there are traditionally not pro-chinese or have relations with china..they were parts of Majapahit decades before the spanish came FYI.
I think the Zheng state will be like Singapore..surrounded by native states.
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Faeelin
Banned
I think Taiwan is too small to get a "Co-prosperity sphere." If it gets a million people by 1750 it will be a lot.
So, what do you see?
- First, a mercantile state in East Asia with ties to the English. Instead of Dutch learning, you get "English learning." Might be some interesting pop culture effects in Europe and Chinoserie. "So you're the true China, holding out for liberty on an island off a land of despotism? Tell us more and buy our pamphlet."
- I think this feeds into South China as well. The Qing are not going to trust this state, even if they find the bribes pretty awesome. My guess is there's an attempt to conquer it in the 1720s at the latest, but by that point it might fail. (Imagine 18th century ships of the line going up against Chinese junks.). This will be a nasty wakeup call for the Qing state.
Would be interesting in the event of an ATL Chinese Civil War where the Monarchists either fight with both the Nationalists and Communists or side with a faction among the Nationalists who would likely be sympathetic to the Monarchists / Zheng Dynasty.
My mistake then.But without being able to tap into the vast Chinese market,it still raises a lot of problems regarding the survival of such a state--given it's heavily reliant on trade.
Well if they have surplus sugarcane production I'm pretty sure some westerners with purses full of American gold and silver will be more than willing to buy it from them.
In the long term the two states will be reunited. The only question is under whom. If the Qing do get an early wake up call there will be reformers, either early peaceful ones or revolutionaries as they did in the OTL 20th century. When Qing either modernizes or falls to revolution the new state will try to conquer Zheng again; the more Zheng sticks to a Han cultural basis the more important of a target they will be to mainland China. The only reason Taiwan held out OTL is because of American backing, and IMO it's too far from Europe before the 20th century for any European nation to be able to defeat a modernized China. The only other possibility is that Qing collapses and Zheng moves in to take the throne. It may well be tempting to many in China if Zheng has become a model, forward-looking nation...
A lot of other places produces sugar as well.The Dutch,English,French and Portuguese have plenty of sugar producing colonies in the New World.So, it's not as expensive as a commodity as stuff like China,tea and silk(although Taiwan produces tea as well).
It's unlikely that the new state would try to conquer Tungning,unless it's another conquest state.Traditionally,Taiwan was not a part of China.It's much more likely that in the event of a Qing collapse,Taiwan leads the charge against the Qing.
Tungning will really need to drop the whole "true Han nation" rhetoric for China to not invade. If they're claiming that they're culturally the "real" China that's going to ruffle lots of feathers. If Qing China gets its stuff together or has a revolution and new China gets its stuff together it's a quick and easy invasion and annexation of "true Chinese people."
It's likely they just get ignored and get laughed at if they insist they are the one true Chinese state if the Han rose up and established a new state.Tungning's claims were only taken seriously because the Manchus were foreigners running an apartheid regime.
Getting Tungning to drop its' claims is unlikely,so for Tungning to survive,it's essential that they get the Philippines.