You realy need a different Netherlands for that. OTL there was the oppertunity to absorb East-Frisia ans a 8th provence, but the Estat-General decided against it. The Dutch republic never had been interested in absorbing parts of Germany. They were barely interested in absorbing Flanders or the Southern Netherlands. Mind you, they didn't need to. East Frisia, Cleves, Bentheim, Lingen, etc were basicly Dutch puppet states and even when they became Prussian there was a lot of Dutch influence in these areas.
WI: The Neatherlands Recieve the Rhineland 1814-1815?
- Thread starter B-29_Bomber
- Start date
A nation characterized not by language but by the smog produced by its mighty factories.
That treaty was signed in 1814 which is also the POD for this question according to its title. So not necessarily. Britain could have returned Dutch colonies.
At the Congress of Vienna Britain made two lists of colonies. The first she was going to keep, the second were negotiable. Those who complained were referred to take up the issue with the Royal Navy.
Since Britain is going to be a major pusher for a Dutch Rhineland, if it happens, the chance of the Netherlands getting it back are even worse than OTL.
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B-29_Bomber
Banned
Doubtful. The French would have an interest in keeping the Rhineland non-German (though admittedly, they'd LOVE it to be French, but that ain't happening on Britain's watch) and even if the Germans and French did this the British would have a heart attack over it.
German unification was in the interest of exactly one great power- Prussia- actively harmful to two more (Austria and Frqnce) and a very mixed bag for a fourth (Britain- on the one hand they don't like the competition, OTOH Germany is a useful stick to beat France and/or Russia with a la the Seven Year War.) Ironically Russia was not, strictly speaking, innately hostile to Germany- they had a shared interest in stopping Polish revanchism, they both might get into conlfict with Britain. Conflicts in the Baltic are a possible sore point, and insofar as they would both like to control the Balkans if not Europe they would probably compete, but there was nothing within Russia's geopolitical outlook that mandated the vehemence of the OTL 20th century. It was the defeat in the Russo Japanese war, and the subsequent resurgence if Europe-oriented parties in the czars government, that really hardened attitudes. Nevertheless give it another few years and one could have imagined Britain drifting away from her Pro Russia policy out of fear.
Regardless, for the prompt in question I do wonder whether German unification would happen at all. In a scenario where Prussia possesses most of Poland or is extremely weak, and does not own the Rhine, would she still support the nationlist project? I think not.
My theory is that German unification would look more like the EU. Several more or less independent countries cooperating in several ways without forming a truly united nation.
Well most people go with a polish-saxon crisis pod (personally i think the brits would have wanted the prussians on the rhine regardless but that's a different discussion) but that pod could still see a Prussian Westphalia as they traditionally have had holdings in the region and there is no real reason to deprive them if it, especially since there are traditionally good relations between Prussia and the Netherlands so you could end up with a best of both worlds situation with the prussians guarding the Rhineland without actually being on the Rhineland but something like this makes Prussia very German as without Posen it's polish minority is actually pretty small which makes it even more likely for German nationalists to look to Prussia as the Uniter of Germany and if the do still have Westphalia Hanover looks like a very logical direction for expansion.
Prussia may not have the Rhineland but in this situation it still has Silesia and now all of Saxony as well as the traditionally wealthy Westphalia provinces nothing to sneeze at.
Not to mention if something like Belgian revolt does happen and France does get involved you could see a Prussia much less bothered by the polish uprising (due to its relatively small polish population) willing to intervene and a Britain worried about the French seizing the Rhine willing to foot the bill.
Prussia may not have the Rhineland but in this situation it still has Silesia and now all of Saxony as well as the traditionally wealthy Westphalia provinces nothing to sneeze at.
Not to mention if something like Belgian revolt does happen and France does get involved you could see a Prussia much less bothered by the polish uprising (due to its relatively small polish population) willing to intervene and a Britain worried about the French seizing the Rhine willing to foot the bill.
Not terribly likely in my opinion
France, Austria And Prussia would all have to be beaten, Russia is buddy buddy with Prussia and britian would be apathetic at best.
That's a lot for the dutch to try to overcome.
Britain is never going to return the Cape Colony, especially to a mega-Netherlands that they would probably not even want to exist.
Eh, Prussia and France toyed with partitioning Belgium OTL. This mega Netherlands is going to be unstable and probably won't last.
BlondieBC
Banned
Would that be true in 1830? To give an example. Frisian is not understandable by modern English speakers. But to a Englishman of around 1600, it is probably mutually intelligible. Also, how many language reforms has Germany had since the 1830's?
Prussia is not going to own more of Poland, that issue was sealed before 1814. A scenario where Prussia somehow doesn't get the Rhineland is quite unlikely, but it'd be a result of Prussia getting compensated heavily elsewhere and becoming even more dominant in northern Germany.
Of course I was taking a PoD earlier in the Napoleonic Wars into account, with a radically different Prussia as disinterested in German Unification as Austria was OTL; by 1814, as you say, much is already set.
it is ofcourse true that Dutch and German start and end at their respective border is a quite modern devellopment, but the tendency towards being culturally and linguistically Dutch or German has started a lot earlier than people might immagine.
Even the 1830s there already was a significant linguistic devide between Dutch and German, eventhough in the border regions this was not so strongly felt just yet. It was however already so that education brought with it the prestige language, ie. standard German or Dutch. More importantly Dutch and German literature from the 1850s and 1860s is very different, almost as different from eachother as modern Dutch and German.
Ah. Though I'd think a Prussia that keeps its Duchy of Warsaw territories would have done it by somehow being more successful against Napoleon, and thus still not be likely to be weak.
Well, my thought was a Prusso-Fremch alliance, Bavaria style, which sort of obviates the question of how they beat Napoleon.