WI: The Maori go to South America instead of New Zealand

[omnidirectional]

Native Americans and Polynesians Met Around 1200 A.D.

Genetic analysis of their modern descendants shows that people from the Pacific Islands and South America interacted long before Europeans arrived

www.smithsonianmag.com

I read this article, and it goes into significant genetic markers of Native Americans dating to the 1200s in the Marquesas islands in Polynesia, among other indicators of sustained contact between Pacific coastal South America and Polynesia.

The Maori settled NZ from Eastern Polynesia during the 1300s. Some of the settlement wave at least came from atolls and archipelagoes near the Marquesas like Cook island and Society Island.

So WI the original Maori population group of Polynesians hear of South America and try their warrior culture out there?

I see a few potential outcomes.

The 1300s are the early Inca Empire, with Cusco founded in the late 1200s.

So, the Maori could conquer and usurp the Inca early on.

Or they could become a mercenary or powerful vassal that eventually challenges the Inca.

Or they could settle away from the main center of power and become enemies/rivals of the Inca or get in fights with other groups on the Colombian coast, where the genetics indicate many of the mixture of Native American and Polynesian DNA originates, making it a likely destination if known.

There would be considerable cultural and technological changes from this.

 

[Arkenfolm]

Maori warrior culture was a product of later centuries and their ancestors were no more or less warlike than other Polynesians. The Marquesans (assuming that's the case and not just a matter of genetics being unable to distinguish between Marquesan and Rapa Nui) were quite different than the natives of the Cook Islands who were the dominant group in NZ settlement (hence why their language is the closest to Maori). Polynesians are most likely to be traders in South America and their victims most likely to be coastal peoples. They don't have the numbers or tech to defeat a powerful tribal group like the early Inca, Chimu, Mantenos, etc.

 

[Board 3659]

Could they potentially spread to Southern Cone?

 

[Maeglin]

Moa survive longer, and no-one chases off Tasman in 1642.

 

[Mildtryth]

Native Americans and Polynesians Met Around 1200 A.D.

Genetic analysis of their modern descendants shows that people from the Pacific Islands and South America interacted long before Europeans arrived

www.smithsonianmag.com

I read this article, and it goes into significant genetic markers of Native Americans dating to the 1200s in the Marquesas islands in Polynesia, among other indicators of sustained contact between Pacific coastal South America and Polynesia.

The Maori settled NZ from Eastern Polynesia during the 1300s. Some of the settlement wave at least came from atolls and archipelagoes near the Marquesas like Cook island and Society Island.

So WI the original Maori population group of Polynesians hear of South America and try their warrior culture out there?

I see a few potential outcomes.

The 1300s are the early Inca Empire, with Cusco founded in the late 1200s.

So, the Maori could conquer and usurp the Inca early on.

Or they could become a mercenary or powerful vassal that eventually challenges the Inca.

Or they could settle away from the main center of power and become enemies/rivals of the Inca or get in fights with other groups on the Colombian coast, where the genetics indicate many of the mixture of Native American and Polynesian DNA originates, making it a likely destination if known.

There would be considerable cultural and technological changes from this.

I find that unlikely - the closest points in South America to Oceania are nearly 4,000 kilometers away and there are no islands between them that might facilitate travel (not counting the Galápagos because they are one of these closest points). That's a greater stretch of unbroken sea that any Polynesian had to sail through previously, and whatever supplies they bring might not be enough for such a trip, and even if they made it there, South America is already inhabited - in all likelihood, the survivors would end up assimilating into the local populations.

 

[Hearkener]

I read this article, and it goes into significant genetic markers of Native Americans dating to the 1200s in the Marquesas islands in Polynesia, among other indicators of sustained contact between Pacific coastal South America and Polynesia.

I'd be very careful to draw historical conclusions from genetic markers.

The Maori settled NZ from Eastern Polynesia during the 1300s. Some of the settlement wave at least came from atolls and archipelagoes near the Marquesas like Cook island and Society Island.

So WI the original Maori population group of Polynesians hear of South America and try their warrior culture out there?

The Maori would be just another low-scale agricultural society facing the Inca Empire. That's not a fight they're going to win.

 

[Domz]

I can probably see a few hundred to a few thousand going to South America at best.

 

[Domrémy-Scorniçesti Axis]

Native Americans and Polynesians Met Around 1200 A.D.

Genetic analysis of their modern descendants shows that people from the Pacific Islands and South America interacted long before Europeans arrived

www.smithsonianmag.com

I read this article, and it goes into significant genetic markers of Native Americans dating to the 1200s in the Marquesas islands in Polynesia, among other indicators of sustained contact between Pacific coastal South America and Polynesia.

The Maori settled NZ from Eastern Polynesia during the 1300s. Some of the settlement wave at least came from atolls and archipelagoes near the Marquesas like Cook island and Society Island.

So WI the original Maori population group of Polynesians hear of South America and try their warrior culture out there?

I see a few potential outcomes.

The 1300s are the early Inca Empire, with Cusco founded in the late 1200s.

So, the Maori could conquer and usurp the Inca early on.

Or they could become a mercenary or powerful vassal that eventually challenges the Inca.

Or they could settle away from the main center of power and become enemies/rivals of the Inca or get in fights with other groups on the Colombian coast, where the genetics indicate many of the mixture of Native American and Polynesian DNA originates, making it a likely destination if known.

There would be considerable cultural and technological changes from this.

The Inca Empire was actually founded in the 1440s, but I think the Maori would raid the coastal peoples and become forgotten outside of oral tradition.

 

[Emperor-of-New-Zealand]

What few survived the journey would not survive a violent encounter with the people they run into.

 

[Arkenfolm]

The maori could establish in the southern cone in a similar pattern as the vikings in europe.
Raiding the established states but eventually that could lead to a maori " normandy" in some " soft" area of south america.

No, because the climate is too harsh and local people too well adapted to a very particular lifestyle. The only way they could is settling the uninhabited Juan Fernandez Islands first, trading enough with local people to import some semi-wild potato cultivar from Chiloe, expanding their population based on that, and then expanding south. And in that case they'd probably kill or enslave everyone in their path leaving a population of mostly women and boys to be assimilated.

Plus there were no states in the region. The most organized and socially complex were Mapuche tribes. Every other group to the south or east were far less socially complex or organized. The Mapuche repelled the Inca OTL, were hugely successful against Spain, and dominated nearly all but the harshest or most rugged parts of the Southern Cone in the process termed Araucanization. Given the precolonial Mapuche were well-established farmers, a few bands of Polynesians would be a mere nuisance.

 

[Xel]

Interesting idea, though as noted the Maori would likely not be notably more violent or skilled in warfare than anyone else and so would likely have some skirmishes maybe and then get absorbed. Perhaps they could bring something neat with them that influences the trajectory of the Tawantinsuyu or by sheer butterflies shake things up but likely not a huge change beyond subtle demographic shifts in the eb and flow of time.

The thought does occur to me though that they may well introduce the wider world to the Inca if they arrive int he right locale. Yes, the Tawantinsuyu had boats, quite impressive one's according to some records. but they were built for hugging the coast, while the Maori's would be made for long distance travel. Combine the two and you may have the makings of a Tawantinsuyu navy that while likely not colonizing the Western ocean may well be travelling more extensively, have stronger ties with the North and islands and be influenced and be spreading influence through such means. For instance, picking up copper weapons from the Purépecha and maybe spreading the use of llma or alpaca, or even maybe conquering into the North.

If we assume minimal changes, this may actually spare 'Australia' somewhat as an uninhabited 'New Zealand' would, while further away, be a far more appealing prize than a country something like 95% of Britain's thought sucked. So they may just dump their criminals there and so any colonization in 'Australia' would be somewhere between none existent and minimal and thus also likely not discover gold (This took nearly five decades RL history) and sot he area may well remain somewhat neglected except as having some ports to stop in and seals to hunt.

 

[Hastings]

The other thing is the longer-range Maori settlements were by relatively small populations. Hundreds or low thousands. Then in the big islands like Hawaii and New Zealand natural population growth did the rest. But a population that size in South America pre-mass death is nothing more than a drop in the bucket. No meaningful tech advantage on land. Quite possible that happened OTL given some evidence of connections, some traders, maybe even a few minor settlements, which of course amounted to very little.

 

[Salamander]

Okay. Polynesians DID travel to, and trade with, South America prior to the settlement of Aotearoa and Hawaii. This has been proven by the presence of sweet potatoes throughout Polynesia, including Aotearoa, and of chickens in Peru, which predated the Spanish Conquest. DNA analysis has confirmed this: with kumara showing a direct link from South America; The Peruvian chickens DNA shows a genetic lineage from Southeast Asia via Polynesia, not via Europe, and from a time that predates European exploration of both the Americas and the Pacific. The pre-Spanish origins of chickens in Peru was also recorded by Spanish conquistadors, who were surprised by the presence of said chickens, as they had been the ones to introduce them elsewhere in the Americas. DNA studies have also shown that Polynesians and Indigenous South Americans did what people do when they really, really, like each other. Polynesian sailing technology and navigation was entirely capable of crossing the Pacific, and their settlement of Polynesia was the result of deliberate exploration, followed by waves of migrations to the lands discovered.


Sweet Potato / Kumara
Historical collections reveal patterns of diffusion of sweet potato in Oceania obscured by modern plant movements and recombination
Radiocarbon and DNA evidence for a pre-Columbian introduction of Polynesian chickens to Chile
The Polynesian gene pool: an early contribution by Amerindians to Easter Island
Two ancient human genomes reveal Polynesian ancestry among the indigenous Botocudos of Brazil
Polynesian Navigation & Settlement of the Pacific
PACIFIC COLONISATION AND CANOE PERFORMANCE: EXPERIMENTS IN THE SCIENCE OF SAILING
The sailing performance of ancient Polynesian canoes and the early settlement of East Polynesia

 

[Citrakayah]

Why weren't better boat building and navigation technologies diffused? Was it likely because they just weren't as useful in South America?

 

[Arkenfolm]

Why weren't better boat building and navigation technologies diffused? Was it likely because they just weren't as useful in South America?

Probably the contact was too sporadic to introduce much change. People prefer to use what they have, and clearly the shipbuilding in Western South America was useful enough for what the people needed it for. Polynesian navigation is even harder to introduce since it involves a lot of oral records and difficult to read charts, so it would take centuries of close relations to introduce to an outside group.

 

[Hearkener]

Why weren't better boat building and navigation technologies diffused? Was it likely because they just weren't as useful in South America?

SA maritime technology was based on coast-hopping to Mexico and back. The Polynesians didn't really offer anything here; their ships were deep water craft that could be used for coast-hopping, but the cultural know-how required combined with the relatively limited benefits probably wasn't worth it.