WI: The Hohenstaufens as Proto-Habsburgs

[Kellan Sullivan]

In my other thread, I mentioned it but here I'm asking what the effects would be of separate Hohenstaufen lines in the Burgundian Palatinate, Italy/Sicily/Tuscany, the Empire and Castile (namely Friedrich I having more male-line grandsons, through Othon (Count Palatine of Burgundy), Italy/Sicily/Tuscany (probably through Philipp), the empire (through Heinrich VI) and Castile (through Conrad of Swabia).

The Habsburgs pulled it off. And the Hohenstaufens ruled many of the same territories. So, presumably (hopefully) with less inbreeding and a bit of better luck than OTL, could the Hohenstaufens manage a sort of continent-spanning empire under various cadets? And how would the rest of Europe (England, France, etc) react to this? France allied with the Turks against the Habsburgs, so while I'm not sure Philippe II Auguste would go so far, I don't see him (or any other monarch) simply kowtowing to the Hohenstaufens.

 

[kasumigenx]

The House of Toulouse would do good allies with the Hohenstauffens against France, England and Aragon specially once they gained Provence via Douce II..

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

I was thinking of a POD being the survival of Friedrich I's eldest daughter. Originally, she was betrothed to Guglielmo III of Sicily, but died before the wedding. She survives and weds into Sicily, and maybe Guglielmo manages a surviving kid(s) with her. @Yanez de Gomera

Joan of England, Guglielmo's OTL wife was likewise betrothed to Barbarossa's elder son, and when he died, she was considered briefly for Heinrich VI before becoming queen of Sicily. I'm not sure if this would affect a marriage between her brother-in-law (Konrad of Swabia) and her niece (Berengaria of Castile), though - the church didn't distinguish between consanguinity by marriage and by birth, so Konrad would thus be Berengaria's uncle. In an age where first cousin weddings were still a no-no (John and Isabella of Gloucester), I'd imagine avuncular weddings are likewise out.

Of course, this changes the whole dynamic of Richard Coeur de Lion's relationship to Barbarossa/Sicily (and for arguments sake, lets leave everyone except the Hohenstaufens and those directly involved with them as OTL).

Likewise, if Guglielmo III has surviving issue by his Hohenstaufen wife, Irene Angelina would (probably) be out of a job. I'm not sure if she would be offered for Philipp of Swabia in such a situation.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Friedrich's youngest daughter, Agnes, can likewise cause interesting butterflies. She was betrothed to Imre (Emmerich), king of Hungary. Of course, she died and Imre wed Costança of Aragon (Friedrich II's first wife).

By keeping Agnes alive (and giving her and Imre kid(s)), the king of Hungary (like the king of Sicily) is half-Hohenstaufen, and grandson/nephew of the emperor. Obviously the amount of imperial interference will probably depend on the relationship between said king and his imperial kinsman, but it will mean that OTL's crazy marriages (Heinrich VI to the spinster, Costanza of Naples, and Friedrich II to the widowed Costança of Aragon) will be avoided - at least in theory.

In fact, Costança might make a half-decent bridal option for the eldest son of Heinrich VI and Joan of England.

And if Agnes is left with an infant son by Imre dying here (as Costança was OTL) will Imre's brother (who usurped the throne from his nephew) dare do the same if the young king of Hungary is nephew/grandson to the emperor?

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Yup. Not sure how true this is, since not all sources even mention the existence of Barbarossa's second daughter, Gisela (b.1168, d.1184), but apparently, at the time of her death, Gisela was slated to marry Richard the Lion-Heart.

I also checked my notes and it was Eleanor of England (OTL queen of Castile) who was betrothed first to Friedrich V and then Heinrich VI, not Joan. However, in light of the fact that we are depriving Joan of her OTL husband by allowing Beatrix of Hohenstaufen to live longer, letting her become empress seems to make up for it.

 

[The Professor]

Considering the OTL connections between Palatine Burgundy, Savoy, and Vienne, I could see the Palatine Hohenstaufens push to resurrect the Kingdom as was apparently considered by Frederick II for one of his sons

 

[kasumigenx]

I think Douce II of Provence surviving would also be excellent as Provence would be under the House of Tolosa, she died around the time when Beatrice of Swabia and William Plantagenet died..the three surviving is interesting.

 

[Emperor Constantine]

Well easy way to have two branches would be for Philipp of Germany to survive and father sons, which leaves Friedrich ruling Sicily.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Considering the OTL connections between Palatine Burgundy, Savoy, and Vienne, I could see the Palatine Hohenstaufens push to resurrect the Kingdom as was apparently considered by Frederick II for one of his sons

Kingdom of Burgundy? Why would they need to resurrect it? Wasn't Friedrich I (or one of the Hohenstaufen emperors) already crowned king of Arelat?

I think Douce II of Provence surviving would also be excellent as Provence would be under the House of Tolosa, she died around the time when Beatrice of Swabia and William Plantagenet died..the three surviving is interesting.

Very interesting. But let's "limit" it to the Staufens for now. I also read that Guillaume VI of Monferrato was engaged to (or considered for) one of Barbarossa's daughters/Hohenstaufen princess (not sure which one), so that could have interesting effects too.

Well easy way to have two branches would be for Philipp of Germany to survive and father sons, which leaves Friedrich ruling Sicily.

I agree. However, most Hohenstaufen era PODs seem to get tangled up in this idea, and I thought I'd go for a slightly different take.

That said, Philipp surviving should be awesome. I'd love to see a TL based on that (if anyone's listening , I'd attempt one myself but I don't know enough about the period).

 

[The Professor]

Kingdom of Burgundy? Why would they need to resurrect it? Wasn't Friedrich I (or one of the Hohenstaufen emperors) already crowned king of Arelat?

I'd assumed you'd collapsed it's administration as OTL and it was purely a title.
Reviving sounds like a goal if so a la OTL Ducal Burgundy.

 

[Matteo]

In my other thread, I mentioned it but here I'm asking what the effects would be of separate Hohenstaufen lines in the Burgundian Palatinate, Italy/Sicily/Tuscany, the Empire and Castile (namely Friedrich I having more male-line grandsons, through Othon (Count Palatine of Burgundy), Italy/Sicily/Tuscany (probably through Philipp), the empire (through Heinrich VI) and Castile (through Conrad of Swabia).

The Habsburgs pulled it off. And the Hohenstaufens ruled many of the same territories. So, presumably (hopefully) with less inbreeding and a bit of better luck than OTL, could the Hohenstaufens manage a sort of continent-spanning empire under various cadets? And how would the rest of Europe (England, France, etc) react to this? France allied with the Turks against the Habsburgs, so while I'm not sure Philippe II Auguste would go so far, I don't see him (or any other monarch) simply kowtowing to the Hohenstaufens.

I think the decisive POD, concerning the Hohenstaufens’ and the HRE’s fates is the premature death of Henry VI in 1197.

Not that things would have high odds of turning differently if Henry VI lived longer because the HRE was an incoherent structure.

But at least it would not have been mission impossible. Frederick II was already too late and his policy was a dead-end, and even a total countersense.

He and his last grandson wrecked the basis of Hohenstaufen power in the kingdom of Germany to pay for their Italian policies and this just hastened the turning of the HRE into a virtual non-entity, setting the stage for France and England becoming main powers on the european stage.

And I don’t think having several branches of the Hohenstaufens would make things different. There were several times such branches, be it the line of Conrad III and the line of his nephew Frederick I, be it the ones of Henry VI and his brother Philip I, or the line of Conrad IV and his illegitimate half-brother Manfred. And in the end they all vanished, and the kings of Aragon gained the inheritance of Manfred in Sicily.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

I'd assumed you'd collapsed it's administration as OTL and it was purely a title.
Reviving sounds like a goal if so a la OTL Ducal Burgundy.

If I did it was unintentional. As I said above, I don't know much about the period, unfortunately. I was also wondering why the emperor would willingly give up a crown (even to a family member) when the Barbarossa seem to be eldest son gets Swabia+empire, a second son gets what mom brought (if she was an heiress of sorts, like Beatrice of Burgundy and Costanze of Sicily), and any sons after that any other sons get heiresses (Berengaria of Castile, the widowed queen of Sicily).

Hence why I'd image that Othon (or his children) would probably wed into the ruling houses of Lorraine, Dauphiné, Savoy and ducal Burgundy, to snatch up territory, but I'm not sure if Arelat's crown would be split from the imperial one.

I think the decisive POD, concerning the Hohenstaufens’ and the HRE’s fates is the premature death of Henry VI in 1197.

Not that things would have high odds of turning differently if Henry VI lived longer because the HRE was an incoherent structure.

But at least it would not have been mission impossible. Frederick II was already too late and his policy was a dead-end, and even a total countersense.

He and his last grandson wrecked the basis of Hohenstaufen power in the kingdom of Germany to pay for their Italian policies and this just hastened the turning of the HRE into a virtual non-entity, setting the stage for France and England becoming main powers on the european stage.

And I don’t think having several branches of the Hohenstaufens would make things different. There were several times such branches, be it the line of Conrad III and the line of his nephew Frederick I, be it the ones of Henry VI and his brother Philip I, or the line of Conrad IV and his illegitimate half-brother Manfred. And in the end they all vanished, and the kings of Aragon gained the inheritance of Manfred in Sicily.

I beg to differ. The Hohenstaufen lines seem to have got along (which is more than can be said for the Luxemburgs, Wittelsbachs, Welfs or the early Habsburgs). That could be because these cadet lines didn't last long - a generation or two - and there was maybe a personal loyalty to a strong familial patriarch (Barbarossa, for instance) - or simply because they never got a chance (i.e. had that central authority been removed).

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

For Konrad II (formerly prince consort of Castile) or Philipp of Swabia - should Irene Angelina be unavailable- an option is a Danish princess (I think I saw somewhere that it was Isambour/Ingeborg, OTL queen of France, but she had younger sisters IIRC. Their older brother (Friedrich VI) had been betrothed to the seven year old daughter of King Valdemar in 1181, and the only girls of seven or thereabouts, are Ingeborg, OTL queen of France and Richeza, OTL queen of Sweden) or Constance of Hungary, both who had been proposed for Barbarossa's third son, Friedrich VI. (So they might make a comfortable substitute for Philipp of Swabia).

If Isambour of Denmark marries a Hohenstaufen prince, it leaves the king of France with no bride. No matter, since Barbarossa's niece, Agnes of Hohenstaufen (OTL ancestress of the later Welfs and Wittelsbachs) was originally supposed to marry Philippe II Auguste. Her OTL Welf husband (who I think she was married to as a political kiss-and-make-up) would be stiffed on a bride, but AIUI the Hohenstaufens and Welfs got along no better and no worse after the marriage.

Constancia of Hungary likewise leaves King Ottokar of Bohemia without a new wife. Although, this might have interesting consequences, since the annulment of his first marriage was contested. By his first wife, one of Ottokar's daughters (Dagmara?) became queen of Denmark. And both Denmark and the emperor were AGAINST the annulment AFAIK. Not to mention that Ottokar was elevated to the royal dignity (first by Philipp of Swabia, then Friedrich II and a third time by Otto IV). Ottokar set aside first wife in 1199 on grounds of consanguinity - after she'd given him an heir (Vratislas) and three daughters - so a butterfly in the 1170s/1180s could change things with regard to that (perhaps a different wife or Ottokar's desire to set her aside (because you don't "suddenly" discover "whoops, I married my sister" after a few kids, unless you're Henry VIII, of course) is removed).

 

[kasumigenx]

What about Philip of Swabia and Eleanor of Brittany?

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

1. Heinrich VI, Holy Roman Emperor [1190-1197] (1165-1201) m: 1175 Joan of England (1165-1199)

a. Friedrich II, Holy Roman Emperor [1201-1240] (1180-1240) m: 1199 Constance of Aragon (1179-1222)​

i. Heinrich (VII), King of Germany [1220-1237] (1202-1242) m: 1225 Margarethe of Austria (1204-1266)​

1. Heinrich (1226-1242)

2. Friedrich (III), King of Germany [1237-1251] (1224-1252) m: 1246 Elisabeth of Bavaria (1227-1273)

a. Konrad V, Duke of Swabia [1252-1268] (1251-1268) m: Sophie of Meißen (1258-1318)​

3. Blanka (1226-1279)​

4. Margarethe (1230-1297)​

5. Kostanze (1233-1307)​

ii. Friedrich (1205-1205)​

iii. Katharina (1206-1262) m:
​

How my (adjusted) idea of a Hohenstaufen imperial family tree looks. Heinrich VI marries Joan of England in 1175. I only decided to give them one kid - TTL future Emperor Friedrich II, because well, Heinrich VI doesn't seem to have had bastard children (like his dad and son did before and after him), and Joan had only one child OTL. So, I figured Joan could be like Margaret Beaufort - ruined by a pregnancy at a young age and unable to have more kids.

Then, because as mentioned above, Imre of Hungary marries Barbarossa's youngest daughter, and has a son with her - TTL Laszlo III (who doesn't die in infancy) before dying. Ergo, Constanca of Aragon doesn't wed to Hungary, but rather to the son of Heinrich VI and Joan of England. They have at least three kids - perhaps more (since Constanca had her last child in 1211, so I figure the possibility exists). Including their eldest son, Heinrich (VII).

Not sure where Friedrich II-Constanca's daughter will marry. Maybe get one of the OTL bridegrooms of Philipp of Swabia's daughters. As you all can see, with no Sicilian crown to keep distracting the imperial Hohenstaufens, the marriages are more Germano-centric (i.e. Margarethe of Babenberg, Elisabeth of Bavaria and Sophie of Meissen as consorts).

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

What about Philip of Swabia and Eleanor of Brittany?

I imagine that if Heinrich VI (brother of Philipp) were to marry Joan of England (aunt of Eleanor) it would be off the table on grounds of consanguinity. Besides, I feel Isambour/Ingeborg deserves a happier fate than OTL, don't you?

 

[kasumigenx]

I imagine that if Heinrich VI (brother of Philipp) were to marry Joan of England (aunt of Eleanor) it would be off the table on grounds of consanguinity. Besides, I feel Isambour/Ingeborg deserves a happier fate than OTL, don't you?

Yes.

 

[isabella]

I imagine that if Heinrich VI (brother of Philipp) were to marry Joan of England (aunt of Eleanor) it would be off the table on grounds of consanguinity. Besides, I feel Isambour/Ingeborg deserves a happier fate than OTL, don't you?

A wedding between Philip and Eleanor and also a wedding between Konrad of Swabia and Beregaria of Castile likely will require a despensation but will still be possible (Richard was engaged to Alys of France despite the precedent wedding between their siblings, Alys was taken in consideration also for John. Plus Alys and Marguerite shared half-siblings with Richard an Henry (sure the wedding between Louis and Eleanor was annulled but still...) and John had married his cousin Isabella of Gloucester and the wedding was annulled for consanguinity at his request)

 

[kasumigenx]

A wedding between Philip and Eleanor and also a wedding between Konrad of Swabia and Beregaria of Castile likely will require a despensation but will still be possible (Richard was engaged to Alys of France despite the precedent wedding between their siblings, Alys was taken in consideration also for John. Plus Alys and Marguerite shared half-siblings with Richard an Henry (sure the wedding between Louis and Eleanor was annulled but still...) and John had married his cousin Isabella of Gloucester and the wedding was annulled for consanguinity at his request)

Actually the fact that Margaret's father and Richard's father used to be married also require dispensation.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Richard Coeur de Lion had some pretty tense relationships with both Barbarossa (or was it his son?) and the kingdom of Sicily (after his sister was widowed).

His nephew, Arthur, duke of Brittany, was betrothed to a daughter of Tancred, after Joan of England was returned to Richard. So, how might Richard do if his sister is Barbarossa's daughter-in-law, while the queen of Sicily is the emperor's daughter?

And, could a similar betrothal (Arthur to Guglielmo II's daughter) be reached? And what effects could this have on England?