WI: The Danish return to Greenland and find it still inhabited?

[Dorozhand]

What if, in 1720, when Denmark got around to looking for its lost colony, they found it inhabited by a semi-civilization of town dwelling, Norse-Inuits fishing and sealing on the coast?

The Norse managed to survive by learning from the Inuit. They now make their livelihood fishing and sealing and, in the summer, practicing what very meager agriculture can still be eked out. They still live in towns, tightly hugging the coast and in some cases built right on the shoreline for easiest access to fish. They practice a syncretic religion of medieval Catholicism mixed with Norse Paganism and Inuit myth. They are politically and socially united and their government is an elected monarchy. There has been heavy intermarriage with the Inuit and their features are a mix of Norse and Inuit elements.

 

[eliphas8]

If they're smart they declare their vassalage to the Crown of Denmark/Norway and are left alone again.

 

[katchen]

More than likely, the Dutch or possibly the English would find them first. And if they had adapted the way you say they have, they will have spread to Baffin Island too, at least by now or even into the Barren Ground on the Mainland via the Melville Peninsula. If Henry Hudson hasn't encountered them, Baffin or Davis will have, and England or Holland will have established trade relations with them and perhaps annexed them before 1720.

 

[Thoresby]

Well the Danes did go looking for them precisely because they feared they were still Catholic and 17th Century Denmark was very heavily Lutheran so I suspect relations would be "complex".

 

[Jurgen Wullenwever]

They still live in towns, tightly hugging the coast and in some cases built right on the shoreline for easiest access to fish.

When did the Scandinavian Greenlanders ever live in towns? A few hundred settlers living in farms and perhaps small villages is my impression, but were there actually towns in mediaeval Greenland? Now I am curious, so pray enlighten us.

 

[Dorozhand]

When did the Scandinavian Greenlanders ever live in towns? A few hundred settlers living in farms and perhaps small villages is my impression, but were there actually towns in mediaeval Greenland? Now I am curious, so pray enlighten us.

The Eastern settlement contained about 4,000 settlers at its peak, and they lived in villages. I just wanted to specify that they didn't become nomadic hunter-gatherers. They still grouped themselves in permanent communities. ITTL, since the Norse made peace with the Inuit and adopted Inuit fishing and sealing techniques, and learned ways to live more efficiently in the environment, the population loss was ended. Their integration of Inuit and Norse culture was so successful that it allowed them to even expand somewhat along the coast.

 

[Midnight-Blue766]

Would contact with Greenland even be lost ITTL?

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Inuits is a double plural. Like Englishmens.

Aside from that, theres going to be next to no Norse paganism involved. Theyd been Christian for 3-400 years.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Also, theres a lot less time spread than you think.

The last documented voyage, ie of which record has survived, was 1410. There was then still a community and a church where the 1408 marriage thats recorded took place. There was also a letter from the Greenland Bishop to the Pope carried on the same ship.

In 1448, the Pope ordered the two Icelandic bishops to provide clergy for Greenland, which hadnt been done for some 30 years. Although its not obvious that they did anything about it.

A Norwegian ship sailed to Iceland in 1540, and found no one.

There are stories of an icelandic ship being blown off course, and finding only a single European corpse, but i dont have a date for that.

Frobisher 'rediscovered' greenland in 1578, and Davis charted the west coast in 1585-6.


So, clearly, if a descendant settlement had survived there would have been intermittant contact. Despite the fact that there WASN'T a colony there otl, there was still a very occasional (very rare) ships arriving. There would have been (a few) more if thete were any one there.

 

[Bavarian Raven]

There are stories of an icelandic ship being blown off course, and finding only a single European corpse, but i dont have a date for that.

That was in 1540, found by an icelandic ship.

 

[Umbral]

Aside from that, theres going to be next to no Norse paganism involved. Theyd been Christian for 3-400 years.

Yeeeeesss, well....the last active pagan altar (that we know of) in Norway seems to have gone out of use around 1860.

Greenland and Greenlanders had a reputation as less christianized and harder to deal with than other Norse. Greenlanders reverting to paganism seems to have been a concern in the 1300s. I would not be surprised to learn that while ostensibly christian there might have been extremly strong pagan traditions in Greenland.

 

[Enigmajones]

What if, in 1720, when Denmark got around to looking for its lost colony, they found it inhabited by a semi-civilization of town dwelling, Norse-Inuits fishing and sealing on the coast?

You would have to find a way to make the actual lands habitable. If I remember correctly, the Norse died off after the climate changed drastically.

 

[Sian]

You would have to find a way to make the actual lands habitable. If I remember correctly, the Norse died off after the climate changed drastically.

And such a change would likely make it so the trade between Greenland and Scandinavia didn't disappear in the first place ... with Ivory from Greenland and tools and shipbuilding know-how from Scandinavia, and depending on the specifics Timber, though this could also be gathered on Newfoundland ...

 

[Bavarian Raven]

I remember correctly, the Norse died off after the climate changed drastically

Not really. They population shrank because the younger generations continue to migrate to greener lands faster then they could be replaced, until the population ceased to exist (save for a few stubborn hold outs that died in the end). It was not that the greenlanders could not live in greenland (towards the end their diet was almost identical to the inuit, save for some sheep and goats), it's that they did not want to live in such a climate anymore.

 

[twovultures]

If they're smart they declare their vassalage to the Crown of Denmark/Norway and are left alone again.

Pretty much this. If they accept some Lutheran missionaries and declare for the Danish king, they'll be safe from having their lands taken by (second wave?) Norwegian and Danish colonists. The best thing that can happen to them is to be left alone, perhaps with some trade from visiting whaling ships. At this point in time, they would be as prone to epidemics as the Inuit so constant contact with Europe would be a very, very bad thing for them.

 

[Falastur]

More than likely, the Dutch or possibly the English would find them first. And if they had adapted the way you say they have, they will have spread to Baffin Island too, at least by now or even into the Barren Ground on the Mainland via the Melville Peninsula. If Henry Hudson hasn't encountered them, Baffin or Davis will have, and England or Holland will have established trade relations with them and perhaps annexed them before 1720.

Aside from that I don't believe this is likely (I just don't think that there's the population available to seed this chain of settlements) this would be hilarious/brilliant. The idea of a Hudson Bay colony seeded by/nominally under the authority of a Melville Peninsular colony which is itself nominally under the authority of a Baffin Island colony which is nominally under Greenland which is nominally under Iceland which is somewhat more enforceably under the control of Denmark - absolutely fantastic.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

Also, theres a lot less time spread than you think.

The last documented voyage, ie of which record has survived, was 1410. There was then still a community and a church where the 1408 marriage thats recorded took place. There was also a letter from the Greenland Bishop to the Pope carried on the same ship.

In 1448, the Pope ordered the two Icelandic bishops to provide clergy for Greenland, which hadnt been done for some 30 years. Although its not obvious that they did anything about it.

A Norwegian ship sailed to Iceland in 1540, and found no one.

.....

For the colony to survive there would have had to be a economic incentive. Perhaps had the Grand Banks Cod been discovered a century earlier? If the demand for that were in place, say 1375 or 1400 then perhaps the Greenland colony would have survived for a while longer as a way station to New Foundland fishing camps? Was the demand for fur large enough in 1400 to pay for the voyage & related costs?

 

[Beedok]

I do wonder why the Inuit didn't take up farming what the Vikings were farming up there. It couldn't have been that difficult, and they already had domestication going so it wouldn't be a great leap of logic and would give them a bit more protein.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

I do wonder why the Inuit didn't take up farming what the Vikings were farming up there. It couldn't have been that difficult, and they already had domestication going so it wouldn't be a great leap of logic and would give them a bit more protein.

Because if farming were viable, the Norse would have survived?

This was 'farming' that was essentiially stock raising, withe little to no grain. As the weather got colder, cattled needed to stay in barns longer, which meant more hay - but the same cold turn jeant less hay productivity.

If the Norse whod been practicing agriculture for most of a thousand years on the very verge of agriculture couldnt make it work, how could an Inuk who had no such tradition?

 

[DG Valdron]

I do wonder why the Inuit didn't take up farming what the Vikings were farming up there. It couldn't have been that difficult, and they already had domestication going so it wouldn't be a great leap of logic and would give them a bit more protein.

Quite the opposite actually. The growing season was too short and temperatures too low to sustain Barley. The Greenlanders were subsisting on a harvest of wild kvan, parsnips, turnips, onions, etc., but the whole package of them wasn't enough for a subsistence crop. Horses weren't enduring the climate, cattle required elaborate barns and fodder, pigs were extinct, there were some sheep and goats. Basically, the Norse were at the extreme outer limits of their agricultural domesticate package, or beyond those limits. There was literally nothing viable for them to take up.

The Greenland Norse were surviving on fishing, sealing and walrus hunting, and highly dependent on their boats to do that. But they had no wood, so boats were a non-renewable wasting resource. The Norse couldn't simply adopt Umiaks and Kayaks because their harvesting and sailing techniques were incompatible.

Basically, they're screwed. There's nothing viable for the Inuit to pick up.

In the meantime, the Inuit survival or subsistence package was contingent on moving from one location to another to harvest seasonal resources - seals during the winter, fish from spawning locations in the spring, rabbit and ptarmigan during the summer, migrating caribou during the fall. This required the Inuit to be in different places at different times of year to harvest key resources.

So if they committed to agriculture, they'd have to give up mobility and resource opportunities. Which isn't all that desirable, given that they'd be adopting a shitty agricultural package not suited to the environment.

If you're interested, I did do a Timeline on Inuit Agriculture called "Land of Ice and Mice"

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=222103&highlight=DValdron