WI: Stalin became an American gangster?

RousseauX

Donor
Anyone have any more interesting ideas for what could happen if this gets kicked off? Could Stalin fight a war with the likes of Al Capone and Luciano going forward? Might this push Hoover into the spotlight a few years early? How would the American underworld change?
I actually think the main problem might be that the two most pronomenient ethnicities (and US organized crime was ethnically based) of the period were Jewish and Sicilians. Stalin being a Georgian might have trouble muscling his way in.
 
I actually think the main problem might be that the two most pronomenient ethnicities (and US organized crime was ethnically based) of the period were Jewish and Sicilians. Stalin being a Georgian might have trouble muscling his way in.
Agree that US organized crime was ethnically based, but... only to a degree. There was a certain degree of meritocracy involved too, where if a good foot soldier proved himself loyal and competent, it didn't matter if he didn't "speak the language"... as long as he got the job done. Stalin in his early days in OTL certainly developed a reputation as a man who could get things done.
I don't really think his Georgian-ness would count that much against him - after all, anyone who immigrated to the US in those days was classed only by their nation of origin, not their specific ethnicity. Stalin's Russian was of course good... if he could eke out a few phrases in Yiddish or German, gained a good command of English after getting to the US, doubt if his funny name (and who didn't have one after passing through Ellis Island) and slightly "off" accent would've raised too many eyebrows - after all, immigrants "from Russia" were a pretty diverse lot. And Georgians are Orthodox - even if Joe was a dedicated atheist already, he could still "go through the motions" enough if that became an issue (he was at one time a seminarian, after all...)
If successful mob bosses in the US can be characterized by one salient commonality, it would be mad survival skills... and in OTL Joe the Boss had those in spades...
 
I actually think the main problem might be that the two most pronomenient ethnicities (and US organized crime was ethnically based) of the period were Jewish and Sicilians. Stalin being a Georgian might have trouble muscling his way in.

This _is_ Stalin we're talking about. He had an incredible ability to play people for his own ends. He became leader of Russia as a provincial IOTL for chrissakes!
 
I could see him being a criminal, but converting the American public to Communism seems odd. If he is fleeing Russia in 1910, this is like 7 years before the USSR's founding.
 
I have to agree... some men are just too dangerous to live, no matter what sort of milieu they are thrust into... though doubtless he would do less damage as an American mob boss than he did in OTL...

Hmmm... unless he were to "go legit" at some point...

And go- shudder-into politics....
 

RousseauX

Donor
Agree that US organized crime was ethnically based, but... only to a degree. There was a certain degree of meritocracy involved too, where if a good foot soldier proved himself loyal and competent, it didn't matter if he didn't "speak the language"... as long as he got the job done. Stalin in his early days in OTL certainly developed a reputation as a man who could get things done.
I don't really think his Georgian-ness would count that much against him - after all, anyone who immigrated to the US in those days was classed only by their nation of origin, not their specific ethnicity. Stalin's Russian was of course good... if he could eke out a few phrases in Yiddish or German, gained a good command of English after getting to the US, doubt if his funny name (and who didn't have one after passing through Ellis Island) and slightly "off" accent would've raised too many eyebrows - after all, immigrants "from Russia" were a pretty diverse lot. And Georgians are Orthodox - even if Joe was a dedicated atheist already, he could still "go through the motions" enough if that became an issue (he was at one time a seminarian, after all...)
If successful mob bosses in the US can be characterized by one salient commonality, it would be mad survival skills... and in OTL Joe the Boss had those in spades...
The mafia at the time required you to have Italian (if not outright Sicilian) ancestry to be a made man. You were blocked from advancing up the hierachy without it.
 

RousseauX

Donor
This _is_ Stalin we're talking about. He had an incredible ability to play people for his own ends. He became leader of Russia as a provincial IOTL for chrissakes!
Communists of the early 1900s didn't have a problem with people's nationalitiy: the mafia however, does.
 
That one did make me laugh a lot
 

marathag

Banned
Communists of the early 1900s didn't have a problem with people's nationalitiy: the mafia however, does.
So Joe Steel would have an organization opposing them in the 1910s when the Mafia got their start

Never was proven, but most think 'Uncle Joe' was behind the ice pick attack on Lupo the Wolf in 1909 and then the later shotgunning of Giuseppe Masseria and one of his mooks, Luciano in 1921.
A cunning opportunist, work for and then against most of New Yorks gangs, and one who pushed for a National Crime syndicate in 1925 with Meyer Lansky and the North Side Gang from Chicago, along with 'Polack Joe' Saltis as a counterpoint to the Sicilians in Chicago and New York
 

McPherson

Banned
So Joe Steel would have an organization opposing them in the 1910s when the Mafia got their start

Never was proven, but most think 'Uncle Joe' was behind the ice pick attack on Lupo the Wolf in 1909 and then the later shotgunning of Giuseppe Masseria and one of his mooks, Luciano in 1921.

A cunning opportunist, work for and then against most of New Yorks gangs, and one who pushed for a National Crime syndicate in 1925 with Meyer Lansky and the North Side Gang from Chicago, along with 'Polack Joe' Saltis as a counterpoint to the Sicilians in Chicago and New York

Speaking of Meyer Lansky: ethnicity and DEADLINESS was not an issue with American organized crime. The Purples did not care from where you came as long as you could deliver. And when you stopped delivering, ethnicity and where you came did not matter either. It is suspected that the Purples sent a couple of torpedoes to deal with the mess that was the Kansas City Massacre.

I can easily see "Machine Gun" Joe Dugash taking either the place of Verne Miller or Pretty Boy Floyd and making mistakes like those rats did, requiring someone to kill them.

Now it is believed the "Purples" got Miller on a contract to clean him up, before the cops got him and he talked, and you can look upthread to see who got Floyd.

McP.
 
They become a Desilu TV show about Joe Dugash and how they try to get him for bootlegging ...and ... fail; though Hollywood claims they succeed.


:p
Hmmm... bootlegging... wonder how he'd fare in Louisville KY, a city that was rather renowned for being a locus for that trade... lots of thirsty people in the Midwest at that time :)
Something about the thought of Big Joe cutting deals wit' dese hooch haulers comin' down from da hills just makes me smile...
 
For those who're interested, I did a little wikibox inspired by the discussions in this thread, if anyone else wants to take a look at it! It's somewhat tongue-in-cheek (or as close as I could make it) and operates off of the premise that Stalin and his parents immigrated to the US shortly after he was born, but I figured folks in here might enjoy it.
 
I was reading the first chapter of Simon Montifore's Young Stalin, and it gives a pretty good layout of how Stalin ran his criminal gang in the 1910s. I got thinking with a friend of mine on a little scenario that struck me... (mostly for fun, but I think there's a pretty interesting story here)

In 1910s Georgia, would-be Bolshevik revolutionary Iosif Dzhugashvili is stuck in a major crisis. A plan that began as the biggest bank robbery in Georgia's history ends up failing spectacularly, robbing him of his muscle and bringing down the wrath of the Okhrana on him.

With nowhere else to go, a mysterious benefactor, having witnessed his rise to power in the Georgian underworld, offers him another chance. To go to America, set up a brand new criminal empire, and convert thousands of the American working class to the Communist cause.

Reluctantly, Iosif takes the chance to "melt down the cross of gold". Making landfall in New York and setting up shop in the steeltown of Pittsburgh, the would-be revolutionary changes his name to Joseph Stalin. He soon makes a name for himself in the American underworld, while finding even greater success in manipulating the Pittsbrgh steel unions to the Communist cause. But he also finds himself against a new host of enemies: the rising Mafia syndicates, rival labor unions, and the growing influence of a certain J.Edgar Hoover...

I haven't really ironed out the rest of this, but I do have a concrete ending: by the 1920s Stalin has made enough money to majorly contribute back to the Bolsheviks at home, but has also ended up pissing off a lot of people, and started a major war against the mafia. Whatever does happen because of this, he is forced back to the USSR just as Lenin's last days become apparent.

Oh, and some other fun things that me and my friend noticed...
* What happens to Trotsky?
* How might his interactions with the mafia, Jewish mob, and the other syndicates go?
* Speaking of which, I had a fun idea for a line: "I am not Russian, Mister Capone, I am Georgian!"
* Stalin taking nightly English lessons (to better communicate with his Americanized lackeys and to finally watch those American movies he loved so much without translators)

Anyone have any more interesting ideas for what could happen if this gets kicked off? Could Stalin fight a war with the likes of Al Capone and Luciano going forward? Might this push Hoover into the spotlight a few years early? How would the American underworld change?
Maybe he becomes a Jimmy Hoffa ?
 
OK, all I want to see now is a Rudnev/Chechulin "Seven Sisters"-style hotel and casino on the Vegas Strip... Joey Steele's Paradise Valley... life will be complete :p
 
OK, all I want to see now is a Rudnev/Chechulin "Seven Sisters"-style hotel and casino on the Vegas Strip... Joey Steele's Paradise Valley... life will be complete :p

Joseph Stalin- the man who made Las Vegas what it is today? Sounds crazy-& yet history is full of strange
stories & examples of how noted people could have- if just one little part of their history is changed- turned out completely differently...
 
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