WI: Southerners did not adopt one-drop rule?

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Anawrahta, Oct 11, 2019.

  1. Jackson Lennock Well-Known Member

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    When Jim Crow and the One Drop Rule became the legal norm, the US census saw a sudden drop in the number of people who identified as mixed-race.

    If you don't have the One Drop Rule adopted into law, then you probably have a more diverse/broad sense of racial identity in much of the US.
     
  2. Ameck16 There are too many Rabbits in my head.

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    I confused by this last part. Are you saying that upper-middle-class blacks were deprived of their wealth or the African American community was derived of upper middle class folks because they were absorbed into the greater white population.
     
  3. interpoltomo please don't do coke in the bathroom

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    Historically, Anglos were the most racist and insular europeans, even by the standards of northern euros. Notice that even the Dutch/Boers didn't do one drop rule and had the mixed "cape coloreds" in between white/black.
     
  4. Ameck16 There are too many Rabbits in my head.

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    That's because the British settled temperate lands and the and they Irish tended to migrate in mass with their families. This led to colonist living in he same social system as they were back on the islands.

    In places where British colonist were unable to bring family along e.g. India before the mid 19th century you saw a lot of mixing with the natives.

    As for the boer they often mixed with Africans due to their relatively small population.
     
  5. Gabingston Well-Known Member

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    To be fair, the Cape Coloureds were barely above full-blooded Black Africans in the Apartheid racial totem pole, as can be seen by the median incomes by race in South Africa.
    [​IMG]
     
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  6. Fabius Maximus Unus qui nobis cunctando restituit rem

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    I think that that was an American thing, rather than an "Anglo" thing. England was in many ways less racist than the US; even as late as the 1940s, for example, American GIs stationed in England were often scandalised at how freely the local girls talked with black servicemen.
     
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  7. interpoltomo please don't do coke in the bathroom

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    kind of, but even more specific than that. the puritan/midlander waves of settlers were unusually insular/xenophobic/racist even by anglo standards, note that it was all yankees pushing for the liberia solution/free soilers wanting zero blacks in the territories, etc.
     
  8. Lampiao Well-Known Member

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    I think you did hit the nail there. A large amount of Anglos that migrated to the Americas are Puritan exiles fleeing with their families from a society that didn't want them and their beliefs. It's not that much different from the mentality of a Jewish settler in the West Bank. It goes without saying that in such extremely religious society extramarital relations are very much frowned upon, particularly if it's with the 'other'/enemy.

    The Cape Colony under Dutch rule was somewhat different from that. They did have the good old strict morality of the Reformed Church, which is the complete opposite from the condescending approach of the Catholic Church. However, what they did have in common with the Catholic colonies is a completely broken social structure, i.e. familial bonds were clearly not as strong as in North America and in Europe and that lead to more mixed race people. The average settler was a retired sailors from the VOC that got tired of killing Indonesians, the Cape was a sailor's town and a commercial hub from the very beginning, it's hard to find a good Christian in these conditions.
     
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  9. Anarch King of Dipsodes Overlord of All Thirst

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    There's a great gap between a "one drop" rule and declaring mulattos "white". What the South adopted initially was matrilineal inherited slave status. There were no children of slave fathers and free mothers, so patrilineal slavery was a null issue.

    Slaves were slaves, period. The question of racial proportions only came in with free people. During the colonial period, AIUI, "free colored" people often asserted civil equality with whites. This got hammered down after the Founding. Property qualifications for voting had excluded nearly all blacks and a lot of whites, but after the Revolution, manhood suffrage became the norm. That meant an explicit race bar.

    But the question of people with only a "trace" of black ancestry was, AFAIK, never resolved. Many such people simply "lost" their black ancestry by moving to a different area. The social stigma remained, to some degree. ISTR a passage in a story by Mark Twain: a woman is described as a wantonly malicious gossip, who once spoiled a promising romance by discoverng that the girl had a "teaspoonfull of negro blood".

    OTOH there was a very remarkable incident in the 1890s. South Carolina was then ruled by white supremacist Democrats, who had largely disfranchised the black majority by fraud and intimidation. They had done enough of this to ensure that no black or black-allied candidate could ever win a statewide office, or a local office in most of the state. However, in a few very heavily black areas, blacks still voted in sufficient numbers to win a few seats in the state legislature and even a US House seat a few times.

    In the 1890s there had been a political revolution; lower-class whites led by "Pitchfork Ben" Tillman overthrew the "plantation aristocrats", who had run the state before the War, and after Reconstruction. Tillman's followers held a convention to rewrite the state constitution, and one desired outcome was the complete disfranchisement of blacks. (How this was to be done without violating the Fifteenth Amendment's prohibition of racial limits on voting, Idunno.) Anyway, the initial proposal for this incorporated a "one-drop" rule. Then delegate George Tillman (Ben's brother) got up and said a one-drop rule was unworkable, because "we're all niggers to some extent". (!!!!!)
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2019
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  10. Jurgen Wullenwever Well-Known Member

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    If there apparently were whites with partial black ancestry, how did that happen? I mean patrilineally, since the son in the second generation would look relatively dark, and perhaps had more difficulty acquiring a whiter wife, or were things less rigid in those days, and more centered on wealth for social standing?

    Any examples from 1600s or 1700s?
     
  11. Lampiao Well-Known Member

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    That was the rule everywhere in the Americas, and, yes, there were children of freed black women and white men, thus the presence of African DNA in about thirty per cent of White Americans.

    Most mulattoes were present firstly in the Chesapeake colonies, which were traditionally non-Puritan colonies, so you can see a pattern there.

    I can't think of an example of a mulatto in the Colonial US right now, but IIRC the son of Pocahontas, Thomas Rolfe, was a wealthy planter and married a white woman. In the early days of the colony, racial boundaries weren't as strict as we tend to think.
     
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  12. Revachah ::purveyor of side-eye and teeth sucking:::

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    My tone would be different if you did always respond with the verbosity of someone who knows what they are talking about but i always end up correcting.

    Tbh i got no smoke with you but when i read your posts they dont always make sense to me.

    I also dont take well to your passive agressiveness and respond in a clear and direct way because i dont care for thinly veiled jabs such as this whole quote.

    Actually your questions are not gifts to me, i was willing to do you a favor by answering but nah :idontcare:
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2019
  13. Jürgen Well-Known Member

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    Free Biracial People of Color marrying White people, freed slaves with a vast majority of White ancestry, White looking "Black" people moving to regions where they're not known and ending up with a White spouse (the so-called passing). Even in a rare case a foundling of mixed racial ancestry (but majority White) being declared White because she was adopted by White parents. Mixed race people of majority White ancestry living in isolated communities and these communities being vicious and violent enough against outsiders trying to force their racial standards on them that the states just gave up and declared them White.

    Fundamental there was a million ways to ignore the one drop rule, when it became ridiculous enough or if it meet real opposition.
     
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  14. Revachah ::purveyor of side-eye and teeth sucking:::

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    This is absolutely false, the foundations of the free black community is rooted in European and indigenous women marrying African men. There are dozens of names associated with these early unions and their children became white, black and "other".


    It was not only "traces", George J. F. Clarke's half black children married into white prominent families.

    The issue really only exists around money and resources right, the wealthiest children born of mixed race unions could and often would marry into white families. In the north and south.

    Did most white people care yes and the prejudice could be pushed aside.

    I quoted that in the thread, it wasnt extraordinary this was a commonly recognized reality in the south and its the reason why ODR only came into being after 1900.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2019
  15. Anarch King of Dipsodes Overlord of All Thirst

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    It didn't. Quadroons (1/4 black), octoroons (1/8 black), and mustees (1/16 or less black) resulted from multiple generations of white fathers and slave mothers.
     
  16. Anarch King of Dipsodes Overlord of All Thirst

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    This response appears to be a complete non sequitur. I referred to the non-existence of slave children of white mothers and slave fathers. Such children, being slaves, would have nothing to do with any "free black community". In any case, marriages between white women and non-white men were very rare compared to matings between white men and non-white women. As in most frontier societies, white men greatly outnumbered white women, and white men had (in general) much more wealth and power than non-white men.

    Clarke lived in Spanish Florida; the mores of Spanish and French colonial societies were very different from the British colonies, especially in the mid- to late- 19th century. Florida's different culture was quickly swept aside by American settlement after US annexation; Louisiana's different culture persisted in some degree up to the Civil War, though the special status of the gens de couleur was significantly downgraded. When white supremacist "Redeemers" seized control at the end of Reconstruction, any remnants of that special status were obliterated.

    Often? There were a handful of such cases, widely regarded as scandalous.

    One case was Richard M. Johnson, Vice President under Van Buren (1837-1841). Johnson was the only Vice President ever elected by the Senate under the procedure specified in the Twelfth Amendment. This happened because the presidential electors from Virginia abstained rather than vote for him, leaving him with exactly half of the total electors, not a majority. The Virginians did that because they were offended by Johnson's personal life. He had had a slave mistress, but openly acknowledged her and their two daughters, who married white men.

    This case was so notorious that it was referred to by Abraham Lincoln in the 1858 debates with Senator Stephen Douglas. Douglas insinuated that Lincoln supported civil and soclal equality of whites and blacks, noting that he allowed Frederic Douglass to sit in a carriage with Mrs. Lincoln and other white ladies. Lincoln denied any such radical beliefs:

    (emphasis added)

    [Douglas had served as an Illinois judge; Johnson had been a militia colonel in the War of 1812, and was credited with personally slaying Chief Tecumseh. Both were Democrats.]
     
  17. pbrower2a Member

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    Today we speak of genetics and not of 'drops of blood'. Obviously if I get a blood transfusion from a Polish-American I do not become a Polish-American.

    At what point do people get so diluted of their African ancestry that they can seem 'white'? Two black people with significant Caucasoid ancestry can have a child who looks very white. So what defines someone as "black" with an ancestry largely Caucasoid? Skin color? That is surprisingly one of the weaker definitions of race. Note well that the skin color of most white Americans is within the range that one would expect in Japan, Korea, and much of China. Everted lips or frizzy hair might be enough to suggest that one is black.

    1/8? 1/16? Appearance is real, and so long as 'blackness' is a disadvantage, people who might look white would pass solely for better jobs, treatment in public life, and other opportunities. Thomas Jefferson had children by Sally Hemings (who was only 1/4 black)... and her children were thus 7/8 white and 'passed'. Culture and affiliation are also real.

    I am tempted to believe that getting free status from a white father (a black child of a white mother was considered black, just the same, when that happened) would have created an even larger population of free blacks... and that would have made a mess of slavery.
     
  18. pbrower2a Member

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    I wonder how many people who think themselves white take one of those DNA tests and find that some mysterious ancestor was well hidden from the family history for a good reason in the time. No, not for being a pirate or a horse thief!
     
  19. Revachah ::purveyor of side-eye and teeth sucking:::

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    You are wrong though. I imagine if you just spent time on the first two pages of a google search or used wikipedia as a sole source your view point would seem very real however that is not the case.

    This compilation of 200 names are associated with free people of color families by Paul Heinegg and J. Douglas Deal.

    1620's: Carter, Cornish, Dale/Dial, Driggers, Gowen/Goins, Johnson, Longo, Mongom/Mongon, Payne
    1630's: Cane, Davis, George, Hartman, Sisco, Tann, Wansey
    1640's: Archer, Kersey, Mozingo, Webb
    1650's: Cuttillo, Jacobs, James
    1660's: Beckett, Bell, Charity, Cumbo, Evans, Francis, Guy, Harris, Jones,Landum/Landrum, Lovina/Leviner, Moore, Nickens, Powell, Shorter, Tate, Warrick/Warwick
    1670's: Anderson, Atkins, Barton, Boarman, Bowser, Brown, Bunch, Buss, Butcher, Butler, Carney, Case, Church, Combess, Combs, Consellor, Day, Farrell/Ferrell, Fountain, Game,
    Gibson/Gipson, Gregory, Grimes, Grinnage, Hobson, Howell, Jeffries, Lee, Manuel, Morris, Mullakin, Nelson, Osborne, Pendarvis, Quander, Redman, Reed, Rhoads, Rustin, Skipper, Sparrow, Stephens, Stinger, Swann, Waters, Wilson.
    1680's: Artis, Booth, Britt, Brooks, Bryant, Burkett, Cambridge, Cassidy, Collins, Copes, Cox, Dogan, Donathan, Forten/Fortune, Gwinn, Hilliard, Hubbard, Impey, Ivey, Jackson, MacDonald, MacGee, Mahoney, Mallory, Okey, Oliver, Penny, Plowman, Press/Priss, Price, Proctor, Robins, Salmons/Sammons, Shoecraft, Walden, Walker, Wiggins, Wilkens, Williams
    1690's: Annis, Banneker, Bazmore, Beddo, Bond, Cannedy/Kennedy, Chambers, Conner, Cuffee, Dawson, Durham, Ford, Gannon, Gates, Graham, Hall, Harrison, Hawkins, Heath, Holt, Horner, Knight, Lansford, Lewis, Malavery, Nichols, Norman, Oxendine, Plummer, Pratt, Prichard, Rawlinson, Ray, Ridley, Roberts, Russell, Sample, Savoy, Shaw, Smith, Stewart, Taylor, Thompson, Toney, Turner, Weaver, Welsh, Whistler, Willis, Young

    You had women such as this person born in 1845 whos great-great-great grandfather was an angolan man by the surname Mozingo [​IMG]

    The majority of these family names were born of either african born men married to early metis or white families or the first generation of mixed race children who married into white lines in the 17th century. Only one of the names above is associate with a white male slave master.

    We have record of a law enacted to insure the wellbeing of female english subjects and their children be protected from male indenturers in 1681 by Lord Baltimore of Maryland attempted to protect christian children by discouraging marriage not for purposes of race but rather the shifting views of non-angolan africans. He did this because a woman he had indentured was forced to marry an indentured african man.

    Thomas Branagan who visited Philadelphia in 1805 observed:

    His children and grandchildren lived in anglo florida and married anglo men

    The position of free people of color existed whether mixed or unmixed and in the Adams Onis treaty all free people of color maintained rights into the 19th century.


    I think its great that you took time to respond to me but you clearly dont know the basis of American race relations nor the social contexts of why this was heinous in his case.
     
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  20. jmc247 Well-Known Member

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    Govenment officials had real issues categorizing Sally and at various points in time identified her as black, a free mulatto and in the 1830 census a free white Virginia woman.

    As for her kids it depended on what they wanted to identify with. James Madison Hemings still wished to be identified as black. For Harriet being identified as black created issues for her marriage to a wealthy white individual so she identified as white.

    Even 3/16th African ancestry was an issue for Sally’s grandson Colonel John Wayles Jefferson a wealthy cotton broker who fought in the Union Army in the Civil War who preferred his men not know he had African ancestry.

    [​IMG]
     
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