Let's say that the Northern and Middle colonies revolt as otl but the southern colonies (and maybe Delaware) remain loyal to London, how does this effects the next century? Would they try to invade New Spain during the Napoleonic Wars? Would they be able to prevent abolition in the empire through financial pressure? If Parliament does try to abolish slavery would they revolt themselves in the 1820's? And would the Southern colonies eventually try to conquer the Northern states to form a pro-slavery empire across the continent?
WI: Southern US Remains Loyalist
- Thread starter Kaiser Tito
- Start date
This is a job for HeX and I.
Southern colonies remaining loyal to the British...
Revolution won't work if Virginia doesn't join. Virginia is just too important in terms of manpower and resources.
If only Deep South doesn't join, this is basically my project Jefferson's Anti-Slavery Crisis. (Link below in my description)
(I should have spent more time fleshing out the Revolution era there. Continental Army/Patriots won in my scenario due to a ton of "fire in the rear" tying down British troops and making the war unpopular for Britain.)
Would they try to invade New Spain: Not sure. I think Napoleon would have sold the Purchase earlier to the US if there was a much greater threat of invasion. War of 1812 won't happen because with British threat from both sides, American politicians will not risk it.
Abolition of slavery: I'd say the British Empire does try this, maybe around OTL (1830s) or slightly later. Influence of British (deep) south probably only shifts timeframe by a few years considering financial pressures from the wealthy British Caribbean OTL didn't work. If a rebellion occurs it likely gets squashed.
The last one seems ridiculous. The British probably won't let them considering big expensive war in the Americas that won't work. Also industrial capacity/manpower issues--northern + middle US has more industrial power and manpower.
US--British rivalry probably occurs for far longer as well.
Interesting knock-on effect: No (deep) South in the US probably means earlier abolition of slavery + No American Civil War + No Lost Cause (which was a direct result of the American Civil War)
As for how this whole thing happens, probably the anti-slavery clause in the Declaration of Independence passes (OTL it didn't pass due to fear Georgia and the Carolinas would back out). My project has exactly that happen and GA + Carolinas leave. HeX's A More Perfect Union has the anti-slavery clause pass, but GA and the Carolinas back down and still join the USA. There was an older project with a royal governor that OTL was in Canada assigned to the South (forgot timeline's name) and kept GA + Carolinas loyal to the British, but Patriots became a thing in Canada and the British couldn't hold on to it.
Southern colonies remaining loyal to the British...
Revolution won't work if Virginia doesn't join. Virginia is just too important in terms of manpower and resources.
If only Deep South doesn't join, this is basically my project Jefferson's Anti-Slavery Crisis. (Link below in my description)
(I should have spent more time fleshing out the Revolution era there. Continental Army/Patriots won in my scenario due to a ton of "fire in the rear" tying down British troops and making the war unpopular for Britain.)
Would they try to invade New Spain: Not sure. I think Napoleon would have sold the Purchase earlier to the US if there was a much greater threat of invasion. War of 1812 won't happen because with British threat from both sides, American politicians will not risk it.
Abolition of slavery: I'd say the British Empire does try this, maybe around OTL (1830s) or slightly later. Influence of British (deep) south probably only shifts timeframe by a few years considering financial pressures from the wealthy British Caribbean OTL didn't work. If a rebellion occurs it likely gets squashed.
The last one seems ridiculous. The British probably won't let them considering big expensive war in the Americas that won't work. Also industrial capacity/manpower issues--northern + middle US has more industrial power and manpower.
US--British rivalry probably occurs for far longer as well.
Interesting knock-on effect: No (deep) South in the US probably means earlier abolition of slavery + No American Civil War + No Lost Cause (which was a direct result of the American Civil War)
As for how this whole thing happens, probably the anti-slavery clause in the Declaration of Independence passes (OTL it didn't pass due to fear Georgia and the Carolinas would back out). My project has exactly that happen and GA + Carolinas leave. HeX's A More Perfect Union has the anti-slavery clause pass, but GA and the Carolinas back down and still join the USA. There was an older project with a royal governor that OTL was in Canada assigned to the South (forgot timeline's name) and kept GA + Carolinas loyal to the British, but Patriots became a thing in Canada and the British couldn't hold on to it.
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Yeah, I just threw that in there in case they were able to annex all of central America and break off as a slave power. More of a worst case scenario than an actual prediction really.
Interestingly, someone posted a concept involving a British Florida/Georgia/South Carolina that was proposed by the Spanish and French. That could be interesting to work with.
unprincipled peter
Donor
I don't think you can just assume OTL ARW except a couple/few colonies don't join. It would change the complexion of the rebellion and results.
Perhaps, with a larger British bloc of colonies, Spain decides not to openly oppose Britain. At minimum, this means no Florida(s) revanche. At max, this alone threatens the success of the rebellion.
With a solid southern base, Britain can much easier strike at the middle.
But, accepting it at face value, and Spain/France join as OTL, and we end up with an independent USA minus Georgia/South Carolina/North Carolina (and more? Tennessee remains part of NC). Spain might get West Florida through conquest, but it didn't conquer East Florida, so that remains British.
West Florida/New Orleans are going to be easy targets should Spain and Britain oppose each other in war, as they ended up doing in the Nap Wars. Britain absolutely will not let the French back on the continent. However, New Spain is pushing the limit. Britain might foster a rebellion there, but too much resource drain to directly invade.
USA politics change, with the ATL balance of regional power shifting. Continental politics change with the ATL redrawing the map.
I don't know enough about British abolition to comment.
Perhaps, with a larger British bloc of colonies, Spain decides not to openly oppose Britain. At minimum, this means no Florida(s) revanche. At max, this alone threatens the success of the rebellion.
With a solid southern base, Britain can much easier strike at the middle.
But, accepting it at face value, and Spain/France join as OTL, and we end up with an independent USA minus Georgia/South Carolina/North Carolina (and more? Tennessee remains part of NC). Spain might get West Florida through conquest, but it didn't conquer East Florida, so that remains British.
West Florida/New Orleans are going to be easy targets should Spain and Britain oppose each other in war, as they ended up doing in the Nap Wars. Britain absolutely will not let the French back on the continent. However, New Spain is pushing the limit. Britain might foster a rebellion there, but too much resource drain to directly invade.
USA politics change, with the ATL balance of regional power shifting. Continental politics change with the ATL redrawing the map.
I don't know enough about British abolition to comment.
I also have a list of similar discussions that may help with this one
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Did the plantation class' obsession with expanding slavery to more land exist at the time and could they get further than the louisiana territory? The slavery fanaticism might not have happened until after the cotton gin but I don't quite remember.
Or Indian/Chinese indentured servants, like was the case in part of the Caribbean.
I liked that one, radical Malthusianism was interesting
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