WI Smedley Butler lives

[Peabody-Martini]

I've had a TL bouncing around my head for awhile now. Smedley Butler died in 1940 at the age of 58 of a mysterious stomach ailment, possibly cancer. If doctors had somehow been able to save his life or he had not developed this illness. What might have happened had he lived past 1940? How would the continued rising tide of fascism, the wars in Europe and China have affected his antiwar beliefs? What lingering impact would the unraveling of the Business Plot have? What might have been his reaction to the attack on Pearl Harbor and America's entry into WW2?

 

[Mad Missouri]

I have always wondered how much of his post-military anti-war ideas were just pay back for being passed over for USMC Commandant. Also I doubt even if he had lived that he would have had much impact on the nation. Butlers had a way of allowing his mouth to get himself into trouble it was his politically powerful father that allowed his career to get as far as it did. Once daddy died there wasn't anyone to protect him.

 

[John Fredrick Parker]

I actually found myself thinking about this earlier today -- primarily, if there was any chance once WWII started that Butler would re-enter the forces?

 

[pnyckqx]

I actually found myself thinking about this earlier today -- primarily, if there was any chance once WWII started that Butler would re-enter the forces?

The real question is how Butler could have avoided re-activation had he been inclined to do so.

When the war started in December 1941, Butler would have been a year younger than Douglas MacArthur, who was recalled from his retirement in 1937.

You don't just throw away proven talent, and there are probably clauses in a General officer's contract that allow for involuntary return to service. Most recently General Peter Schoomaker was recalled from retirement to active duty to become Army Chief of staff in 2003.

 

[John Fredrick Parker]

The real question is how Butler could have avoided re-activation had he been inclined to do so.

When the war started in December 1941, Butler would have been a year younger than Douglas MacArthur, who was recalled from his retirement in 1937.

You don't just throw away proven talent, and there are probably clauses in a General officer's contract that allow for involuntary return to service. Most recently General Peter Schoomaker was recalled from retirement to active duty to become Army Chief of staff in 2003.

That's my thinking here, by and large...

 

[Wendell]

If Butler, one of history's most overrated American political figures, was dedicated to his pacifist aims, he might have still opposed the war on December 8, 1941, citing American policy for triggering Japanese hostility.

 

[TyranicusMaximus]

If Butler, one of history's most overrated American political figures, was dedicated to his pacifist aims, he might have still opposed the war on December 8, 1941, citing American policy for triggering Japanese hostility.

Even so, I could still see him serving if called.

There were plenty of folks who were opposed to entering the war up until it was entered, but who played at least some role in the support (economic, scientific, or militarily) of the war.

 

[Grey Wolf]

The real question is how Butler could have avoided re-activation had he been inclined to do so.

When the war started in December 1941, Butler would have been a year younger than Douglas MacArthur, who was recalled from his retirement in 1937.

You don't just throw away proven talent, and there are probably clauses in a General officer's contract that allow for involuntary return to service. Most recently General Peter Schoomaker was recalled from retirement to active duty to become Army Chief of staff in 2003.

Thank you! I had been wondering how MacArthur was still serving at the age he was. I suppose the question is why he did not re-retire but I guess by then his self--importance was too high to be done away?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

 

[TNF]

If Butler, one of history's most overrated American political figures, was dedicated to his pacifist aims, he might have still opposed the war on December 8, 1941, citing American policy for triggering Japanese hostility.

I highly doubt this. Only the most extreme isolationists opposed entering the war after Japan had killed 2400 men at Pearl Harbor. I think that Butler would have, like the other isolationists, changed his mind.

 

[Peabody-Martini]

Having read Butler's book, I have the impression that his main objections revolved around the USMC being used to secure the intrests of American corporations. Pearl Harbor represented something totally different.

 

[pnyckqx]

Thank you! I had been wondering how MacArthur was still serving at the age he was. I suppose the question is why he did not re-retire but I guess by then his self--importance was too high to be done away?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

MacArthur was 61 years old in 1941. Manditory retirement age was 64. This of course excludes five star flag officers who remain on active duty rolls until their death even if they do not have an active command.

 

[Geekhis Khan]

I really think he rejoins after Pearl. This is a "blatant attack" with dead Americans, not another "Wall Street racketeering" effort in Latin America. He goes on to command Marines in the Pacific, highers-up possibly half hoping he won't make it back alive. Knowing him, he'd find an excuse to step ashore no matter what. He might die, he might earn a second star on his MoH, who knows?

Post-war if he survives he's undoubtedly pulled into the debate on the continued existence of the USMC. Maybe he campaigns for far-left candidates and gets targeted in the McCarthy witchhunts...possibly becoming the bite McCarthy couldn't chew. He'd certainly be loudly against cold war support of rightist governments!

 

[Peabody-Martini]

If he goes to the Pacific theater that could very easily put him on a collision course with MacArthur. That would make for a very interesting meeting, look up MacArthur's reaction to Mountbatten being appointed to South East Asia Command in 1943. Fireworks?

 

[Geekhis Khan]

If he goes to the Pacific theater that could very easily put him on a collision course with MacArthur. That would make for a very interesting meeting, look up MacArthur's reaction to Mountbatten being appointed to South East Asia Command in 1943. Fireworks?

Certainly possible, though as a political pariah pre-war I can't imagine Butler gets a third star so he'll be outranked and limited in how loudly he can protest.

 

[NothingNow]

I really think he rejoins after Pearl. This is a "blatant attack" with dead Americans, not another "Wall Street racketeering" effort in Latin America. He goes on to command Marines in the Pacific, highers-up possibly half hoping he won't make it back alive. Knowing him, he'd find an excuse to step ashore no matter what. He might die, he might earn a second star on his MoH, who knows?

I could see him being involved more as a rear-echelon officer, or in a secondary part of the pacific theater, more due to politics than anything else. Probably China.

Post-war if he survives he's undoubtedly pulled into the debate on the continued existence of the USMC. Maybe he campaigns for far-left candidates and gets targeted in the McCarthy witchhunts...possibly becoming the bite McCarthy couldn't chew. He'd certainly be loudly against cold war support of rightist governments!

That he would. depending on things, if he retires shortly after the end of the war, he might be a republican candidate for the Presidency in 1948, replacing Dewey. The man was popular enough outside the halls of power.

 

[pnyckqx]

If he goes to the Pacific theater that could very easily put him on a collision course with MacArthur. That would make for a very interesting meeting, look up MacArthur's reaction to Mountbatten being appointed to South East Asia Command in 1943. Fireworks?

Would not have happened. His theater commander would have been Nimitz, not MacArthur. He'd have probably had a few things to say to Nimitz though about the casualties his Marines were taking.

 

[Mad Missouri]

Would not have happened. His theater commander would have been Nimitz, not MacArthur. He'd have probably had a few things to say to Nimitz though about the casualties his Marines were taking.

He wouldn't get a combat command. There is a reason he was not given a combat command during WW1. There is also a reason that once his powerful dad died his seemingly "bright" career ended. There wasn't anyone to protect him anymore. And he burned to many bridges with the other Marine officers when he got passed over and retired. At best if for forced to take him back, they give him a training or recruiting command. Maybe he runs a war bond tour. At which point more than likely he takes another of his "leaves of absences."

 

[TNF]

After the war, Butler might very well be a prominent supporter of Henry Wallace's Presidential bid in '48. Veep candidate, possibly?

 

[Orville_third]

Well, Butler was dismissed in part because of a jab at Mussolini. He might do well as Wallace's VP, though I'm not sure if he'd be as vocal a desegregationist as Wallace and Glen Taylor (who got arrested for entering a campaign meeting through a "Colored" door in Birmingham, Alabama).

 

[pnyckqx]

He wouldn't get a combat command. There is a reason he was not given a combat command during WW1. There is also a reason that once his powerful dad died his seemingly "bright" career ended. There wasn't anyone to protect him anymore. And he burned to many bridges with the other Marine officers when he got passed over and retired. At best if for forced to take him back, they give him a training or recruiting command. Maybe he runs a war bond tour. At which point more than likely he takes another of his "leaves of absences."

There's politics, and then there's public opinion. Kinda hard to keep a two time Medal of Honor winner on the shelf.

Still, putting Butler in an administrative position would be a smart move. He did have considerable administrative talent.

More than likely, it would be good to use him as an observe Marine Corp operations in order to make changes that would reduce casualties and improve efficiency. It would make him visible in theater, yet remove him from a combat role. It would also be a boost in moral for the Marines.