WI: Roman/Carthage Alliance against a third power?
- Thread starter Shiva
- Start date
Some talented successor of Alexander the Great, perhaps? Let's say Antigonos didn't die at Ipsos but won a victory eventuelly becoming a ruler of Asia Minor, Greece and Macedonia. His successors, blocked in the east by Ptolemaic-Seleucid alliance decide to conquer the west.
Perhaps an Antigonian army lands in Italy to conquer Magna Gracia and Sicily, let's say about 270 B.C., which automatically makes it enemy both to Rome and Carthage (and Syracuse). An alliance would be a natural consequence.
Perhaps an Antigonian army lands in Italy to conquer Magna Gracia and Sicily, let's say about 270 B.C., which automatically makes it enemy both to Rome and Carthage (and Syracuse). An alliance would be a natural consequence.
Last edited:
the most obvious nation that might be able to pull it off would be the Antigonid dynasty in Macedon that goes about focusing westward instead of going loggerheads with the Selecuids, Attalids and Ptolemaics.
But i can't help thinking that an alliance between Cathage and Antigonids would be somewhat more likely, unless they're highly aggessive
But i can't help thinking that an alliance between Cathage and Antigonids would be somewhat more likely, unless they're highly aggessive
The Antigonids don't have the manpower to assert power west. Makedon was drained of manpower in the successor wars. You'd have to have a more lasting state such as a Pyrrhus esque figure uniting Magna Graecia. It would fail as soon as Carthage and Rome got their shit together however, and then they are once more at loggerheads.
While I can see how a Mega Hellenic state could possibly force Rome and Carthage into alliance it seems to be covered. So in response I will give an alternate empire for the city states to fight.
Perhaps a mega Achaemenid empire which curb stomps the Greeks in the Greco Persian wars and territory extends to Illyria. This huge cosmopolitan empire would make Carthage tremble, in response Carthage allies the rising imperial state of Rome in the 200s BC. This alliance would include many other little states in a coalition (Syracuse, Illyrian states, Cyrenia, etc...). This would entail a continued friendship between Rome and Carthage and the two would have more commonalities.
The war would turn well for the coalition as they wreck the Achaemenids at land and at sea (Achaemenids AKA mega paper tiger) liberating egypt, Greece and more interestingly (at least to me) Phoenician states. These states would literately be liberated with native rulers resuming rule, the coalition, however is unlikely to make it past Iraq and stops there after the Persians relent.
This world would be quite interesting with a Roman Italy, Carthaginian North Africa, Balkanized Greece and Makedonia, Phoenician and Aramaen city states, Jewish kingdom in Israel, Nabateans, a rump Achaemenid state, stronger Cyrene, Balkanized Anatolia, and native Pharonic dynasty in Egypt.
What would happen from there, I will let others speculate. After I get some feedback I will see what I can come up with after.
Perhaps a mega Achaemenid empire which curb stomps the Greeks in the Greco Persian wars and territory extends to Illyria. This huge cosmopolitan empire would make Carthage tremble, in response Carthage allies the rising imperial state of Rome in the 200s BC. This alliance would include many other little states in a coalition (Syracuse, Illyrian states, Cyrenia, etc...). This would entail a continued friendship between Rome and Carthage and the two would have more commonalities.
The war would turn well for the coalition as they wreck the Achaemenids at land and at sea (Achaemenids AKA mega paper tiger) liberating egypt, Greece and more interestingly (at least to me) Phoenician states. These states would literately be liberated with native rulers resuming rule, the coalition, however is unlikely to make it past Iraq and stops there after the Persians relent.
This world would be quite interesting with a Roman Italy, Carthaginian North Africa, Balkanized Greece and Makedonia, Phoenician and Aramaen city states, Jewish kingdom in Israel, Nabateans, a rump Achaemenid state, stronger Cyrene, Balkanized Anatolia, and native Pharonic dynasty in Egypt.
What would happen from there, I will let others speculate. After I get some feedback I will see what I can come up with after.
Mecha Syracuse?
Actually a pretty good candidate would be if Pyrrhus can hold on to his empire (we'll say it's Epirus, Sicily, and Southern Italy -- adding Macedonia might well prove more burdensome for such an empire than it's worth, and we're really only interested in the implications on the west), and that empire survives him. Carthage and Rome obviously allied with each other against Pyrrhus in real life, so there's that. Epirus and Magna Graecia had manpower that wasn't tapped by Alexander and the Diadochi.
Another candidate might be a surviving Alexander, or a surviving Argead empire that sees his son(s) go west - that would certainly be an adversary that Rome and Carthage could ally against if things go a certain way.
While it's possible that the Antigonids look west, I think it's better to stick with the historical example of someone who did, or at least planned, to go west. There's a lot more drawing the Antigonids eastwards.
I'm a little more sceptical that the Achaemenid Empire would expand to the point of seeing a Roman-Carthaginian alliance. The Persians' base was further east, and they didn't try to expand westwards again after Salamis. There's less reason to assume they would continue going west in a hypothetical Persian conquest of Greece scenario than there is for Alexander, who famously planned on conquering the west before he died.
Edit: Ah, slydessertfox beat me to mentioning Pyrrhus. I only skimmed everyone's comments before I posted. Anyways I think Pyrrhus' empire surviving is the best POD for this.
Actually a pretty good candidate would be if Pyrrhus can hold on to his empire (we'll say it's Epirus, Sicily, and Southern Italy -- adding Macedonia might well prove more burdensome for such an empire than it's worth, and we're really only interested in the implications on the west), and that empire survives him. Carthage and Rome obviously allied with each other against Pyrrhus in real life, so there's that. Epirus and Magna Graecia had manpower that wasn't tapped by Alexander and the Diadochi.
Another candidate might be a surviving Alexander, or a surviving Argead empire that sees his son(s) go west - that would certainly be an adversary that Rome and Carthage could ally against if things go a certain way.
While it's possible that the Antigonids look west, I think it's better to stick with the historical example of someone who did, or at least planned, to go west. There's a lot more drawing the Antigonids eastwards.
I'm a little more sceptical that the Achaemenid Empire would expand to the point of seeing a Roman-Carthaginian alliance. The Persians' base was further east, and they didn't try to expand westwards again after Salamis. There's less reason to assume they would continue going west in a hypothetical Persian conquest of Greece scenario than there is for Alexander, who famously planned on conquering the west before he died.
Edit: Ah, slydessertfox beat me to mentioning Pyrrhus. I only skimmed everyone's comments before I posted. Anyways I think Pyrrhus' empire surviving is the best POD for this.
But they did in the face of the threat from Pyrrhos. That is the third treaty of alliance mentioned by Polybius in his Universal History.
Pyrrhus lost a huge amount of soldiers and equipment on his journey to Magna Graeca to fight the Romans. He ran into a huge storm so severe the boat he was on sank and he was forced to swim to shore. Apparently he was still soaking and incredibly peeved when he arrived in Taras with a few stragglers and had to wait for the rest of his army to assemble after the disaster.
Perhaps if he delays his trip or goes early (the Diadochi were desperate to keep him out of their squabbling and practically threw an army at him when he expressed an interest in going to Italy) he may have far more soldiers to become a far greater threat.
Perhaps if he delays his trip or goes early (the Diadochi were desperate to keep him out of their squabbling and practically threw an army at him when he expressed an interest in going to Italy) he may have far more soldiers to become a far greater threat.
I didn't say Persia was more likely than Alexander, I just offered up a scenario I found interesting, and could be possible.
I assumed he meant long-term.
Fair enough.
It's an interesting scenario that you wrote, just a little more difficult to have happen IMO.
Abhakhazia
Banned
That's probably your best option- if Pyrrhus is a scary enough threat for the Romans, they won't turn down the offer of naval protection from Carthage that they did historically. However, even then, Roman-Carthaginian relations were on a downward spiral, and it's unlikely that the two powers wouldn't have gone to war over something.
The Achaemenid Empire
The Achaemenid Empire, managed to conquer and successfully to annex to the Greek Poleis in mainland Greece, converting it into its newest satrapy.
The Greek military and naval potential unified and controlled by the Achaemenid added to the Persian Empire, would make them the dominant power in East and Central Mediterranean causing the alliance of fact existed between the Roman and Punic not break, facing common Persian threat.
The Achaemenid Empire, managed to conquer and successfully to annex to the Greek Poleis in mainland Greece, converting it into its newest satrapy.
The Greek military and naval potential unified and controlled by the Achaemenid added to the Persian Empire, would make them the dominant power in East and Central Mediterranean causing the alliance of fact existed between the Roman and Punic not break, facing common Persian threat.
Any large eastern power will do the trick... until it doesn't anymore. The only other real course of action is for one or both cities to be nipped in the bud and reduced in power dramatically, thus enabling them to maintain peaceful relations.
Shamless plug that my timeline has them unified into a combined commonwealth in the wake of a collapsing Alexandrian Empire.
Shamless plug that my timeline has them unified into a combined commonwealth in the wake of a collapsing Alexandrian Empire.
Gee, if Troy survives, then Rome never rises. (What, the Aeneid isn't reliable history?
)