WI: Restored WRE divided in three branches (Roman, German & Wend)

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Mario, Dec 21, 2016.

  1. Mario Well-Known Member

    Jul 15, 2013
    I have designed this map of an eventual restored WRE (Carolingian style) where the different territories had been divided into three 'branches':

    - Roman (Latin + some Hellenic and other allies) Exarchates: Italy & Africa, Gaul and Spain & Mauritania. Divided into prefectures. PALE YELLOW.
    - German (or Germanic) stem Duchies: Dania, Jutland, Rugia, Saxony, Thuringia, Frisia, Alamannia, Bavaria, Burgundy, Francia (East & West), Gothia (East & West), Suebia, Vandalia, Lombardy (Greater & Lesser) and Gepidia. Divided into counties. PINK.
    - Wendic (meaning Germanized -and partially Christianized- Slavic) Marches: Wendland, Pomerania, Lusatia, Silesia, Bohemia, Moravia, Avaria, Carniola and Croatia. GREEN.


    ADMINISTRATION: Only the Roman branch is under direct rule of the Emperor, through the three Exarchs. The German duchies are mostly independent, but they have a common Diet which elects a common German King, with limited powers. The German King recognizes the overlordship of the Roman Emperor, but has enough power to veto or overthrown undesired Emperors. The Wendic Marches are ruled by German nobles, accordingly to the German Diet.

    RELIGION: Only the Roman branch is under the effective religious authority of the Pope, while the German nations keep their own national Councils (authority of the Pope is only symbolic). Christian Wends are either tied to any of the German Councils or sometimes the Pope (case of Carniola and Croatia).

    NEIGHBOURS: The ERE had collaped in 618 and now the Eastern part is divided between the Slavic-Roman Empire (Nestorian), the Greek-Roman States (Orthodox), the Iranian Kingdom (Zoroastrian) and the Caliphate (Muslim). The relation of the WRE with all of them are not good, while relations with Poland and the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms are fine. Bulgars are ITTL confined at IOTL Valachia and Magyars are stopped east of the Carpathians.
    PaleoT likes this.
  2. Mario Well-Known Member

    Jul 15, 2013
    This is one of the basic ideas I will use for mi next TL.

    But it will be probably revamped in some way.
  3. Karakorum New Member

    Nov 3, 2016
    Taipei, Taiwan
    Would the Gepids really get their own stem duchy though? I thought they had pretty much faded away after their collapse. Also, what is the Avarian march really? The Avars appear on your map to be displaced, so I assume Avaria is just full of Slavs and named after its former occupants.

    Also, what are the Empire's relationship with the Bulgars, Magyars, and Avars like?

    Anyways, this looks like it has great potential to become an interesting ATL.
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2016
  4. Mario Well-Known Member

    Jul 15, 2013
    Nice questions.

    Well, Gepidia, as well as Burgundy or Vandalia, would be 'fake' stem duchies like Burgundy was IOTL, meaning that there are not true Gepids or Vandals anymore (in the best case, nobility with Gepid or Vandal ancestry), but they adopt the model of a stem duchy for enjoying more self-government and profit from mutual assistance with the other stem duchies.

    You are right. Avars are moving south of the Danube when the South Slavs migrate into the Bosphorus area. Other Slavs (Wends) fill the empty left by Avars, but keep the name of Avaria (similar to the OTL Carolingian Avarian March).

    Probably not good, most of the time.

    Thanks :)
  5. John7755 يوحنا Lightweight Faqih

    Dec 30, 2014
    What occurred in the Mid East to stop the Umayyad from stopping this confederation. This entity would likely not exist with a fully realized Umayyad Caliphate on its heels in both Italy, al-Andalus, Ifriqiya, Adriatic Sea, etc....

    Good idea, regardless.
  6. Mario Well-Known Member

    Jul 15, 2013
    There is no Umayyad Caliphate here. The Persians had defeated the ERE in 618, so when the Muslim surged in the 630s, Persia was strong enough to stop their expansión into Syria, Mesopotamia etc. The Caliphate (not Umayyad) here is reduced to Western Arabia and Egypt (with Cirenaica).
    Armot likes this.
  7. John7755 يوحنا Lightweight Faqih

    Dec 30, 2014
    Which tribe or family rules the Caliphate then? I typically see the Rashidun as the Umayyad, usually they run together in my opinion despite it being technically different.
  8. Mario Well-Known Member

    Jul 15, 2013
    Mmm this is something I would need to think about. Obviously, the different early stage of the Caliphate would mean no Umayyads, but maybe I could search for something analogue. Or maybe an Egyptian family/tribe, as Egypt would be the most important land of this smaller Caliphate.

    No Shia Islam ITTL.
    John7755 يوحنا likes this.