WI: Poland and Hungary were part of the HRE

[Mario]

Both the earliest Polish and Hungarian states (by the 10-11th centuries) were strongly tied to the HRE after the conversion to Christianism of their corresponding leaders, but they never were formally subdued to the Imperial authority and both countries remained outside the HRE sphere even if, in the case of Hungary, were later united to the Habsburgian crown.

Why if the Ottonians would have opted for making them two formal duchies of the HRE, instead of satellital/vassal/peripheral entities?

* Possible consequences:

- Christianization (and colonization) of Prussia, the Baltic and Lithuania could have been faster and easier; given that the HRE could have remained more centralized for more time, like in the Ottonian/Salian era, until these events, maybe the HRE could have spanned from the Meuse to Ingria and Belarus. Probably no need of Teutonic Knights, northern Crusades and so.

- Major involvement of the German states against the advance of the Ottomans in the western Balkans. Maybe the Ottoman occupation of Hungary could have been avoided, probably also in Bosnia.

- The HRE becomes a more multi-cultural entity, unless policies of Germanization would be implemented in Poland and Hungary at earlier times (reducing Poles and Magiars to a status analogue to the Sorbs today).

- Reformation might have a more limited impact: there would be more pro-Catholic lands inside the HRE, maybe no free Prussia also. If so, the Thirty Years War could be avoided.

 

[krieger]

Both the earliest Polish and Hungarian states (by the 10-11th centuries) were strongly tied to the HRE after the conversion to Christianism of their corresponding leaders, but they never were formally subdued to the Imperial authority and both countries remained outside the HRE sphere even if, in the case of Hungary, were later united to the Habsburgian crown.

Why if the Ottonians would have opted for making them two formal duchies of the HRE, instead of satellital/vassal/peripheral entities?

* Possible consequences:

- Christianization (and colonization) of Prussia, the Baltic and Lithuania could have been faster and easier; given that the HRE could have remained more centralized for more time, like in the Ottonian/Salian era, until these events, maybe the HRE could have spanned from the Meuse to Ingria and Belarus. Probably no need of Teutonic Knights, northern Crusades and so.

- Major involvement of the German states against the advance of the Ottomans in the western Balkans. Maybe the Ottoman occupation of Hungary could have been avoided, probably also in Bosnia.

- The HRE becomes a more multi-cultural entity, unless policies of Germanization would be implemented in Poland and Hungary at earlier times (reducing Poles and Magiars to a status analogue to the Sorbs today).

- Reformation might have a more limited impact: there would be more pro-Catholic lands inside the HRE, maybe no free Prussia also. If so, the Thirty Years War could be avoided.

I doubt in succesfully reducing Poles and Magyars to status of Sorbs. Germans didn't even manage to do this with Bohemians and both Poles and Magyars are more numerous than them. When we're looking for a PoD - maybe surviving Otto III would be a good start? He'd accept Boleslav the Brave as a Bohemian prince and Poland would remain friendly to the Empire. Together they'd be strong enough to beat Hungarians into submission.

 

[John7755 يوحنا]

The Empire was always 'multi-cultural' in a sense. It is not as if it was simply a German kingdom, it was an empire that alongside the Papacy, claimed universal empire to a large degree.

 

[Mario]

The Empire was always 'multi-cultural' in a sense. It is not as if it was simply a German kingdom, it was an empire that alongside the Papacy, claimed universal empire to a large degree.

Yes, it was at their earliest stages, but at the end the nations different to German/Dutch were reduced to peripheral ones with not much weight inside the Empire. The addition of Poles, Hungarians and their associated nations like Croats, Baltic peoples and so would increase not only the degree of multi-culturality but also the political, social and cultural weight of non-Germanic nations inside HRE.

 

[Mario]

This map would reflect the development of this expanded-to-East HRE and keeping it centralized up to 1400 AD, with just 16 stem duchies:

 

[Disraeli2004]

For what it's worth, I think the inclusion of Poland and Hungary would make the HRE even less roman and/or an empire, and more inept and dysfunctional. There was an emerging identity of the "German nation" with the HRE which was smashed by the reformation and the divides that unleashed but there were avenues and opportunities to make it into a viable nation state (notably Charles V- I believe I read somewhere that Napoleon said if he was a protestant, he would have unified Germany). But ultimately the imperial forces could not win in open warfare with the French and therefore the balance of Germany between the emperor, the princes and the French was created. In this timeline, not only is German identity not a part of an imperial identity, the HRE has to contend with expansionism in its East from Russia as well as in the West by France. It's vast territories require further delegations to the princes, further weakening the role of the emperor and national identities are not formed towards the sprawling empire. It might even collapse before Napoleon. The empire is therefore seen as a quasi-religious institution and not as a nation state even more definitively.

 

[Dr.Evil]

I think it wouldn't necessarily have a negative effect. Henry the Lion, amongst other, undertook major settling of Eastern European regions near Austria / Bohemia and was apparently quite successful + building a true powerful base there from what I understand.
Let the Welfs lead the Polish and Hungarian magnates into the Empire and it could probably work out. I guess some intermarriage amongst the nobility seems plausible. However I think sooner or later there must be a personal union of one of the kingdoms with the imperial crown to keep it all together. I mean look what troubles Sigismund had: huge lands and loads of kingdoms but no autocratic power.. This polish-hungarian-german-bohemian-italian empire would surely need some strong figures like Barbarossa/Henry II. to keep it going for some years.

 

[Skallagrim]

This map would reflect the development of this expanded-to-East HRE and keeping it centralized up to 1400 AD, with just 16 stem duchies

Considering the migration patterns of OTL, the borders of Franconia/Francia, Saxony and Frisia would be very different. The Saxons moved east in Northern Germany, the Franks moved east in Central Germany. the area now called Saxony, which you depict as part of the Saxon Stem Duchy, only gained that name due to an OTL dynastic fluke. That fluke is unlikely to be repeated in an ATL, and the people living there speak a language derived from Franconian, not from Saxon.

Meanwhile, Saxons moved west as well, basically pushing the Frisians into the coastal wetlands and taking all the dry land for themselves.

Flanders is unlikely to become an independent stem duchy here. Far more likely would be for the much larger-than-you-depict-it Franc(on)ia to be split into two Stem duchies (East and West Francia, if you will).

If Frisia maintains idenpendence, it will be as a March, not as a Duchy. It is also possible that it gets divided between West Francia and Saxony.


Rough map would look something like this:

If you still want to keep the same number of Stem Duchies, just split up Poland, which is improbably huge.

 

[DracoLazarus]

The formal border between the HRE and France was the Escaut/Schelde in Flanders as a consequence of the 843 Treaty of Verdun.
I would tend to say that, the more large Duchies and Kingdoms are inside the Empire, the more dissolved the power and influence of the Emperor will be, to the point that it is well possible that the Eastern realms do like Italy and spend their time rebelling to get independent from the Empire.
With regards to the Western borders, West Francia pre-Philip Augustus is fundamentally weak, despite sitting on the richest lands in Europe. The primary asset the Capetians exploited was both their dynasty's resilience and their extreme legalism. Still it took them all the genius of Philip Augustus to create France.
Knock-on effects may butterfly the Angevin Empire or Philip Augustus rather easily.

 

[John7755 يوحنا]

Yes, it was at their earliest stages, but at the end the nations different to German/Dutch were reduced to peripheral ones with not much weight inside the Empire. The addition of Poles, Hungarians and their associated nations like Croats, Baltic peoples and so would increase not only the degree of multi-culturality but also the political, social and cultural weight of non-Germanic nations inside HRE.

Which later stages? Maybe after the Protestant Reformation so forth, when the Empire was so degraded. But the Empire at the times we refer for an atl of this nature, is not just a 'German nation' as revisionists attempt to display it as, including Voltaire or modern thought.

Also, who crowned the king of Poland first? If it was the Pope, perhaps if the Papacy has a role that is more accepted by the Emperor, the Papacy could designate Poland as within 'Rome' and hence under jurisdiction of the Emperor and the Papacy in a sense. Over time this solidifies into Poland as a major aspect of the Empire.

Hungary is more difficult, if I am not mistaken, they received crowns and paid submission to the Eastern Empire.

 

[Mario]

Hungary is more difficult, if I am not mistaken, they received crowns and paid submission to the Eastern Empire.

No, the first Christian Hungarian King, Stephen I, was crowned by the Pope with the consent of Otto III in 1000 AD. The famous Crown of Saint Stephen, of Byzantine origin, was not used until the 1070s.

 

[Disraeli2004]

This map would reflect the development of this expanded-to-East HRE and keeping it centralized up to 1400 AD, with just 16 stem duchies:

View attachment 501998

Sorry if I'm behind on this, but what prompts the retention/creation of a significantly more centralized HRE (other than the empire getting bigger, which rather seems to induce the opposite), which eluded the emperor right up until the dissolution of the empire? Why would the stem duchies of the 11th century be able to surrive into the 15th century? Do these 16 duchies become electorates? How would the Free Cities/ small feudal princely lands be forced into this structure?

This is what the HRE was like by 1400AD: