WI Perceval held Malaya?

[Blair152]

I've been to the History of the Malaya Campaign thread. This is related to it.
WI Perceval held Malaya? An impossibility at the time, given the fact that
Churchill had strip British forces in North Africa for other purposes. Greece,
for example, and yes, Malaya as well. Britain, before World War II, had let
her defenses in the Far East go flabby. Sound familiar? If Perceval had had
ALL the men he needed, he would have been able to defend all the Japanese
invasion beaches and make Omaha Beach at Normandy look like a tea party
by comparison. Your thoughts, suggestions, criticisms, and comments, are always welcome.

 

[Riain]

What will happen, the question is what won't happen. Basically if Malaya holds, and this is entirely possible, then the Japanese warplans are fucked.

 

[jlckansas]

Any of the Japanese attacks on or after Pearl Harbor that end up being stopped or reversed throw the entire warplan out the window. They were stretched to the max to do all of them at once and had no reserves in place to pick up the slack and reinforce them.

 

[Blair152]

What will happen, the question is what won't happen. Basically if Malaya holds, and this is entirely possible, then the Japanese warplans are fucked.

That's exactly what I was thinking. Omaha Beach at Normandy almost doomed D-Day. It would also depend on air superiority. If the British had had
air superiority over Malaya, then all bets are off.

 

[Snarf]

Even as things stood in OTL, Percival might have been able to make a credible stand had he chosen to do so. Yamashita's army was almost at the end of its supply line; if Percival had dug in and set up static defenses in and around Singapore he may not have been able to hold the city but he could have made the Japanese pay for it. And the act of buying time may have helped the Allies tremendously.

 

[Blair152]

Even as things stood in OTL, Percival might have been able to make a credible stand had he chosen to do so. Yamashita's army was almost at the end of its supply line; if Percival had dug in and set up static defenses in and around Singapore he may not have been able to hold the city but he could have made the Japanese pay for it. And the act of buying time may have helped the Allies tremendously.

Yamasita's army was counting on seizing British supplies, which it did, and
Perceval was either unwilling, unable, or to be charitable, both, to do it.

 

[Cook]

I've been to the History of the Malaya Campaign thread. This is related to it.
WI Perceval held Malaya? An impossibility at the time, given the fact that
Churchill had strip British forces in North Africa for other purposes. Greece,
for example, and yes, Malaya as well. Britain, before World War II, had let
her defenses in the Far East go flabby. Sound familiar? If Perceval had had
ALL the men he needed, he would have been able to defend all the Japanese
invasion beaches and make Omaha Beach at Normandy look like a tea party
by comparison. Your thoughts, suggestions, criticisms, and comments, are always welcome.

The failure was in command, not in men.

He had the Australian 8th division, the British 18th div and an Indian Army Corps. He more than doubled his opponent’s forces.

Deployment and use of terrain was shoddy.

So for starters let’s not ask how Percival could hold Malaya, let’s replace him and ask how the Allies can hold Malaya.

The Army required familiarity with the jungle. There were a few officers with the knowledge but most lacked it and the senior command didn’t even understand the question. Consequently the British units stuck to the few poor quality roads available while the Japanese bypassed them when need be.

The Japanese were down to their last rounds of artillery ammunition when Singapore fell. A serious defence in the jungles of Malaya would have seriously screwed them.

The Allies lacked air cover, and what little they did have wasn’t co-ordinated with the Army anyway.

There are British Intelligence papers of the time that said the Japanese could not make good pilots because their mother’s carried them around on their backs as babies and this ruined their sense of balance. And their soldiers were all short sighted bad shots. If your intel of the enemy is that poor you are going to have problems.

 

[Snarf]

The failure was in command, not in men.

He had the Australian 8th division, the British 18th div and an Indian Army Corps. He more than doubled his opponent’s forces.

Deployment and use of terrain was shoddy.

So for starters let’s not ask how Percival could hold Malaya, let’s replace him and ask how the Allies can hold Malaya.

Who else would be available in the theatre? Bennett doesn't impress me--at least Percival had the honor to accompany his troops into internment once the battle was lost. Maybe give Heath or Beckwith-Smith a fair chance?

 

[Flocculencio]

I agree with Cook- bugger Percival. He was a waste of time and space.

Essentially Yamashita was down to his last reserves when he crossed the Straits of Johore. The invasion of Singapore was a huge gamble designed to overawe the British into surrendering- a gamble that worked.

If Percival had held out for a day or two more Yamashita would simply not have been able to carry on the fight.

 

[Cook]

Who else would be available in the theatre? Bennett doesn't impress me--at least Percival had the honor to accompany his troops into internment once the battle was lost. Maybe give Heath or Beckwith-Smith a fair chance?

Agreed, but that is my point. It was wrongly considered a low priority posting.

 

[Cook]

Essentially Yamashita was down to his last reserves when he crossed the Straits of Johore. The invasion of Singapore was a huge gamble designed to overawe the British into surrendering- a gamble that worked.

The Battle was already lost by then, the Japanese controlled the reservoirs. The battle was lost in the jungles of Malaya, which was great terrain for defence if they’d actually used it.

If Percival had held out for a day or two more Yamashita would simply not have been able to carry on the fight.

This definitely shows that a decent use of the troops available on the Peninsular could have stopped the Japanese drive south.

 

[Cook]

I’m not trying to argue with you (and myself) Flocculencio, just emphasising that the battle of Singapore was lost in the jungles half way up the Malaya Peninsular, not at the Straits.

 

[Flocculencio]

I’m not trying to argue with you (and myself) Flocculencio, just emphasising that the battle of Singapore was lost in the jungles half way up the Malaya Peninsular, not at the Straits.

Oh I totally agree- I just wanted to point out that all was not yet lost. Even with the loss of the reservoirs a single solid push would have forced the Japanese to fall back since any actual combat would have used up all remaining supplies. No point holding the reservoirs if you've got nothing to hold them with. I would have been a bad couple of days in the city with no water but the battle wouldn't have been lost.

 

[Larrikin]

Who else would be available in the theatre? Bennett doesn't impress me--at least Percival had the honor to accompany his troops into internment once the battle was lost. Maybe give Heath or Beckwith-Smith a fair chance?

Bennett was a right PITA if you were a professional officer, and also felt he should have been given command of either the 6th or 7th Divisions going to the ME as he was senior to either of their commanders. But he was a good fighting officer. Giving him overall command, though, would have been a grave mistake, Heath was probably the best choice, or even someone like Alexander or Tuker being given the Command in the first place.

Perceval wasn't showing honor in accompanying his troops into captivity, he was showing shame, but I'll forgive you because you are a 'Murrican. In the British military it is the duty of officers to try to evade, and if captured, to escape. The men in captivity are looked after by their NCOs. For all the garbage thrown at Bennett, he did the right thing, he evaded, he returned to Australia, and he reported what he knew on Japanese tactics, techniques, etc, etc. The reason he wasn't given another combat command was the brawling he had done with his Reg officers, and because Australia actually had a surfeit of extremely good officers in his rank bracket, many of them quite a bit younger and believed to be more suited to the rigors of command in the tropics.

 

[ComradeTovarich]

Who else would be available in the theatre? Bennett doesn't impress me--at least Percival had the honor to accompany his troops into internment once the battle was lost. Maybe give Heath or Beckwith-Smith a fair chance?

Perhaps if you went further back in time, blew Percival to bits with an IRA hit team in the 1920s and butterflied William Slim into the picture, you might have that commander.

 

[Cook]

Perhaps if you went further back in time, blew Percival to bits with an IRA hit team in the 1920s and butterflied William Slim into the picture, you might have that commander.

Thanks mate.

Bill would definitely have been a good choice!

 

[Larrikin]

Thanks mate.

Bill would definitely have been a good choice!

Too junior at this juncture, unfortunately, which is why I suggested Gertie Tuker. He was the best available IA officer of appropriate rank, already a Major General and quite capable of the step up to LtGen.

Another interesting option would have been reactivating Bernard Freyberg's British Commission, but I think the Kiwis might have screamed blue bloody murder over that one.

 

[Cook]

Freyberg was in North Africa at the time wasn’t he?
Did he have experience with the jungle?

I’ll leave aside the issue of a Kiwi commanding a formation without a NZ element.

 

[Larrikin]

Freyberg was in North Africa at the time wasn’t he?
Did he have experience with the jungle?

I’ll leave aside the issue of a Kiwi commanding a formation without a NZ element.

Freyberg retired from the British Army as a Major General to go and take up the post of CGS in his native country. Prior to that, all his service had been actually in the British Army (70th Div, RND, etc during WWI). That's why I said reactivate his British Commission, and that the Kiwis would scream.

If he was posted there at the same time as Percival he would have had time to look at the country, and he sure as hell wouldn't have stuffed around an up the Prevaricating Percy did.

 

[Cook]

I think we are agreed that some other commanders and senior officers would have benefitted the situation enormously.