WI/PC. US & Allies go all in for Nationalist China?

Inspired by martymcfly's earlier post of a Chaing Kaishek's Nationalist China.

What if the US and it's Allies ignore the corruption and went all out in trying to get a Nationalist China victory against the Communist forces in the Chinese Civil War?

What I'm thinking about is using excess "Lend - Lease" equipment, training, supplies etc.

Would it be possible?

How long would it take to get a nationalist victory?

Would it allow China, in the future to be on par with Korea or Japan in industrial advancement and standard of living?

Regards filers
 
One has to ask how the USSR would react to the US & Allies doing this. On the one had, the Chinese communists were at arm's length, and Soviet relations with the Nationalists weren't bad. On the other hand, that didn't prevent the Soviets from turning over Japanese weapons to the Chinese communists and providing other support during their occupation of Manchuria.

On the other-other hand, the USSR isn't an equal competitor in a support and supply contest with the United States in the aftermath of WWII.
 

Deleted member 94708

Interesting question as always.

Given that the Communists owe their victory at least as much to American meddling with the Nationalists as to their own (admittedly decent) military prowess, the US supporting the Nationalists would almost certainly put them in control of the country, with the Communists broken to the extent that they cannot actually take and hold territory.

The problem is... what then?

The Nationalists were, as many have said, essentially a coalition of the urban middle, professional, and commercial classes with the rural landowners, many of whom were barely better than feudal lords. It was clear during the Nanjing Decade that Chiang Kai-Shek was aiming to bring the latter to heel, sooner or later, as his government made real and substantial improvements to governance and infrastructure which favored the former over the latter, as well as investments in industrial and commercial enterprises which did the same. These were ultimately aimed at improving the lot of his urban powerbase such that he could use it to force reforms upon the rural landowners without losing control of the whole ensemble. The problem is that these improvements were largely destroyed during the war against the Japanese, as was the bulk of the Nationalists' combat power, which set any reform program back by at least a decade.

Even working with US aid, the KMT would not be able to quickly or easily rebuild its development initiatives and build the strength necessary to force reforms upon one of the two pillars of its support. It would likely take into the late 1950's or early 1960's before they could eye land reform with any reasonable chance of getting it through landowner opposition. Which begs the question... what do they do to keep the countryside from open revolt in the meantime? The CCP has long since transformed itself into a party of the downtrodden rural workers. If the KMT cannot begin improving their lot they'll face a situation much like that faced by the South Vietnamese government IOTL, or the Japanese in China before them, wherein they control and have support from the urban centers and major transportation links between them, and can generally hold the countryside under ordinary circumstances, but a Communist insurgency can, when it concentrates its forces, take places away from them temporarily. This is NOT a recipe for success when it comes to economic development, as South Vietnam proved IOTL.

It's likely that, in the long run, even the landholder class will figure out that they need to give some ground or die, especially since Chiang seems to have realized this even before WWII and begun directing some of his energies and political capital in that direction. However, the road from 1949 to the point where major land reforms take place isn't going to be short, and it won't be pretty. It will take until the 1960's before they can really finish rooting out the Communists from their rural hideouts, and there probably won't be a Chinese economic miracle along the lines of Reform and Opening until little more than a decade before schedule.

On the other hand, by the time the KMT has gotten the security situation under control and is in a position to implement a major program of export-driven economic growth, there will be a substantial and sophisticated urban commercial and professional class which isn't completely entirely a part of the KMT itself, which means that its economic growth over the coming decades it less likely to be quite as corrupt and cronyist as the PRC's has been. That in turn will positively affect its prospects for long-term liberalization and democratization.
 
Inspired by martymcfly's earlier post of a Chaing Kaishek's Nationalist China.

What if the US and it's Allies ignore the corruption and went all out in trying to get a Nationalist China victory against the Communist forces in the Chinese Civil War?
The best I can foresee is Chiang trying to mop up southern China first from the Communists before the Soviets/US sign a treaty on the Chinese Civil War, putting a boundary between ROC and PRC along either the Yellow or Yangtze Rivers.
Of course, there was a thread long time ago where I considered a Yunnan/Guangxi fortress for the ROC which later becomes a US base of operations for military campaigns in Indochina. Lots of genocide and fascism for all around there.
If southern China did become Nationalist:
- lots of border clashes. see India-Pakistan relations.
- PRC will probably be less developed than ROC because of simple lack of hard cash for the Communist Bloc.
- Ultimately, PRC won't make drastic changes in alliances as was seen OTL 1971.
- ROC got the majority of minority groups. They'll most likely be worse off than OTL because Chiang will get paranoid over them.
- also, lots of border guerrillas and regional warlords, like in Latin America. Probably also means vibrant drug trade.
- lots of the Japanese sympathizers during the war will come over to the ROC. Good capital accumulation for Chiang.
- it's likely that Xinjiang will become independent or an SSR under the Soviet Union.
- how much Chinese nationalism will affect these two countries' relations post-Cold War is an interesting thought to entertain.
That's all I have for now.
 
What if the US and it's Allies ignore the corruption and went all out in trying to get a Nationalist China victory against the Communist forces in the Chinese Civil War?

What I'm thinking about is using excess "Lend - Lease" equipment, training, supplies etc.

Maybe if the US intervenes strongly in 1945 or (maybe) 1946. By 1947, I'd say it was too late.

The problem is, the Chinese Communists have an extremely effective political stick to beat the Nationalists with (land reform, which the Nationalists cannot respond to without losing half their support base) giving them access to a far deeper manpower pool, had the advantage of being (and being seen as) far more honest than the Nationalists at this point and have the advantage of support from the USSR.

As such, my bet would be that even a strong US intervention in '45 would at best produce a China crippled by chronic civil war or divided between Nationalist and Communist successor states. At worst, it just extends the Chinese civil war by 10-20 years (and wouldn't that make for an interesting cold war?)

fasquardon
 
The question is, just what all-out aid means. If it means US troops, there is practically no chance of this. As dedicated an anti-Communist as General MacArthur repeatedly said, "anyone in favor of sending American ground troops to fight on Chinese soil should have his head examined." https://books.google.com/books?id=462-ocjLNtAC&pg=PA76

Would anything short of this be enough? I doubt it. Chiang got plenty of aid from the US. Derk Bodde (an American professor who was a witness to the Communist takeover), describing the PLA victory parade in Beijing in 1949 said "what made it especially memorable to Americans was the fact that it was primarily a display of *American* military equipment, virtually all of it captured or obtained by bribe from Kuomintang forces in the short space of two and one half years." https://archive.org/stream/pekingdiaryayear009614mbp#page/n133/mode/2up

Here let me anticipate two arguments: (1) The notion that Chiang was on the verge of a decisive victory in Manchuria in 1946 and was prevented from winning only by a cease-fire imposed by Marshall is not supported by the evidence. See Harold M. Tanner, *The Battle for Manchuria and the Fate of China: Siping, 1946* the concluson of which is summarized by one reviewer as follows: "The major question concerns the decisiveness of the battle of Siping. In retrospect, many Nationalists have looked on this battle as a lost chance to win the war. According to this view, the Nationalists had the Communists in full retreat until the Americans interfered with the cease-fire that halted pursuit of Mao’s armies. The pause allowed the Communists to rebuild their forces and eventually win control of Manchuria. Without a cease-fire, supporters of this argument believe that Nationalists would have secured control of Manchuria and eventually defeated the Communists across China. In response, Tanner argues that Siping did not set the stage for a possible Nationalist victory in Manchuria. Chiang’s armies faced logistical and manpower problems and that further advance might have fatally exposed Nationalist forces to Communist hit-and-run attacks." http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.php?id=39472 Another review (not available in full to non-subscribers): "Tanner systematically refutes such charges against Marshall...Using a variety of recently available archival materials, he demonstrates that leadership on both sides had military reasons for accepting the ceasefire at that time. In reality, Marshall's maneuvers were peripheral to their strategic decision making. The latter was shaped by perceptions of the changing facts on the battlefield. *Chiang had no intention at the time of pursuing the communists beyond the Songhua River.* [emphasis added]. Although Western and Taiwan-based historians have argued in hindsight that pursuing and annihilating the communists is what he should have done, Chiang was focused on consolidating his hold on southern Manchuria by moving north to capture Changchun. Tanner quotes Chiang's diary to make this point. As for Marshall, both the communist and nationalist leaders considered him a nuisance...to be humored and outmanuevered at the negotiating table... "
http://ahr.oxfordjournals.org/content/118/5/1500.extract The notion that Marshall prevented Chiang from gaining a decisive victory by taking Harbin is also false: see my post at https://soc.history.what-if.narkive...i-marshall-lets-chiang-take-harbin-1946#post1 where I point out that "In short, the significance of this particular event seems to have been overblown. Marshall did not coerce a reluctant Chiang into losing a golden opportunity to wipe out Lin Biao's troops; rather, Chiang as well as Marshall was worried that going too far north could be provocative to Stalin, and anyway capturing Harbin would not have made that much of a difference, militarily speaking, for the KMT."

(2) 'What about the arms embargo imposed for eight months in connection with the Marshall mission?" Answer: "In military terms, however, the embargo's effect was limited, since the Nationalist forces had already been well equipped with surplus materiel from U.S. bases in the Pacific." Odd Arne Westad, *Decisive Encounters: The Chinese Civil War, 1946-1950* (Stanford University Press 2003), p. 49.https://books.google.com/books?id=JBCOecRg5nEC&pg=PA49

"Overall, however, the KMT had ample supplies of weapons and probably lost more to capture, defection, and poor planning than to maintenance failure. A 1950 classified evaluation by the Nationalist Ministry of National Defense accurately assessed the issue: 'We have never heard it said that our military defeat in recent years resulted from a lack of ammunition or an insufficiency of other supplies. Rather, we inadequately understood bandit-suppression and anticommunism; we had insufficient morale; and our government, economy and programs completely failed to provide close support for the bandit-suppression military effort.' Jonathan M. House, *A Military History of the Cold War, 1944–1962* (University of Oklahoma Press 2012). https://books.google.com/books?id=T5lxAwAAQBAJ&pg=PT144

BTW, as House notes, even during the arms embargo, the US "gave or sold China another $200 million worth of 'nonmilitary' wartime surplus trucks and other equipment, often at advantageous rates." Those who argue that the US didn't do enough to Chiang sometimes discount all aid that wasn't strictly "military" but this is absurd. The more such aid the KMT got--*if it was effective* (and the *effectiveness* of US aid, both military and economic is a different matter from its extent) the more it could devote to the war. Money, after all, is fungible. There may have been some spare parts the KMT could only get from the US but as noted they were hardly decisive.
 
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The question is, just what all-out aid means. If it means US troops, there is practically no chance of this. As dedicated an anti-Communist as General MacArthur repeatedly said, "anyone in favor of sending American ground troops to fight on Chinese soil should have his head examined." https://books.google.com/books?id=462-ocjLNtAC&pg=PA76

Now this is very interesting! From what you've read, do you think this would hold true even if the USSR were more active in Chinese Central Asia? I've been trying to figure out what a Soviet invasion of Sinkiang c. 1947 would be.

fasquardon
 
The question is, just what all-out aid means. If it means US troops, there is practically no chance of this. As dedicated an anti-Communist as General MacArthur repeatedly said, "anyone in favor of sending American ground troops to fight on Chinese soil should have his head examined." https://books.google.com/books?id=462-ocjLNtAC&pg=PA76

Would anything short of this be enough? I doubt it. Chiang got plenty of aid from the US. Derk Bodde (an American professor who was a witness to the Communist takeover), describing the PLA victory parade in Beijing in 1949 said "what made it especially memorable to Americans was the fact that it was primarily a display of *American* military equipment, virtually all of it captured or obtained by bribe from Kuomintang forces in the short space of two and one half years." https://archive.org/stream/pekingdiaryayear009614mbp#page/n133/mode/2up

Here let me anticipate two arguments: (1) The notion that Chiang was on the verge of a decisive victory in Manchuria in 1946 and was prevented from winning only by a cease-fire imposed by Marshall is not supported by the evidence. See *Harold M. Tanner. The Battle for Manchuria and the Fate of China: Siping, 1946* the concluson of which is summarized by one reviewer as follows: "The major question concerns the decisiveness of the battle of Siping. In retrospect, many Nationalists have looked on this battle as a lost chance to win the war. According to this view, the Nationalists had the Communists in full retreat until the Americans interfered with the cease-fire that halted pursuit of Mao’s armies. The pause allowed the Communists to rebuild their forces and eventually win control of Manchuria. Without a cease-fire, supporters of this argument believe that Nationalists would have secured control of Manchuria and eventually defeated the Communists across China. In response, Tanner argues that Siping did not set the stage for a possible Nationalist victory in Manchuria. Chiang’s armies faced logistical and manpower problems and that further advance might have fatally exposed Nationalist forces to Communist hit-and-run attacks." http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.php?id=39472 Another review (not available in full to non-subscribers): "Tanner systematically refutes such charges against Marshall...Using a variety of recently available archival materials, he demonstrates that leadership on both sides had military reasons for accepting the ceasefire at that time. In reality, Marshall's maneuvers were peripheral to their strategic decision making. The latter was shaped by perceptions of the changing facts on the battlefield. *Chiang had no intention at the time of pursuing the communists beyond the Songhua River.* [emphasis added]. Although Western and Taiwan-based historians have argued in hindsight that pursuing and annihalating the communists is what he should have done, Chiang was focused on consolidating his hold on southern Manchuria by moving north to capture Changchun. Tanner quotes Chiang's diary to make this point. As for Marshall, both the communist and nationalist leaders considered him a nuisance...to be humored and outmanuevered at the negotiating table... "
http://ahr.oxfordjournals.org/content/118/5/1500.extract The notion that Marshall prevented Chiang feom gaining a decisive victory by taking Harbin is also false: see my post at https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.history.what-if/gRV99OKh4jc/hMSaSkGkCeQJ where I point out that "In short, the significance of this particular event seems to have been overblown. Marshall did not coerce a reluctant Chiang into losing a golden opportunity to wipe out Lin Biao's troops; rather, Chiang as well as Marshall was worried that going too far north could be provocative to Stalin, and anyway capturing Harbin would not have made that much of a difference, militarily speaking, for the KMT."

(2) 'What about the arms embargo imposed for eight months in connection with the Marshall mission?" Answer: "In military terms, however, the embargo's effect was limited, since the Nationalist forces had already been well equipped with surplus materiel from U.S. bases in the Pacific." Odd Arne Westad, *Decisive Encounters: The Chinese Civil War, 1946-1950* (Stanford University Press 2003), p. 49.https://books.google.com/books?id=JBCOecRg5nEC&pg=PA49

"Overall, however, the KMT had ample supplies of weapons and probably lost more to capture, defection, and poor planning than to maintenance failure. A 1950 classified evaluation by the Nationalist Ministry of National Defense accurately assessed the issue: 'We have never heard it said that our military defeat in recent years resulted from a lack of ammunition or an insufficiency of other supplies. Rather, we inadequately understood bandit-suppression and anticommunism; we had insufficient morale; and our government, economy and programs completely failed to provide close support for the bandit-suppression military effort.' Jonathan M. House, *A Military History of the Cold War, 1944–1962* (University of Oklahoma Press 2012). https://books.google.com/books?id=T5lxAwAAQBAJ&pg=PT144

BTW, as House notes, even during the arms embargo, the US "gave or sold China another $200 million worth of 'nonmilitary' wartime surplus trucks and other equipment, often at advantageous rates." Those who argue that the US didn't do enough to Chiang sometimes discount all aid that wasn't strictly "miitary" but this is absurd. The more such aid the KMT got--*if it was effective* (and the *effectiveness* of US aid, both military and economic is a different matter from its extent) the more it could devote to the war. Money, after all, is fungible. There may have been some spare parts the KMT could only get from the US but as noted they were hardly decisive.

Apologies for your confusion, I wasn't concise enough with my original question.

When I said "all out", I meant money, supplies, the works but no US Forces in China apart from them that are sent for training.

Regards filers.
 
Would getting the Nationalists to agree to land reform help their cause and defeat the Communists?

Regards filers
 
Would getting the Nationalists to agree to land reform help their cause and defeat the Communists?

I suspect on balance, it would help some. I suspect not very much though, unless the change came during the heat of WW2. My suspicion is that if the change comes after the end of war, it would be seen as insincere by the peasants and as a betrayal by the landowners.

fasquardon
 
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