WI: Norse Madeira and Azores

[Jan Olbracht]

There are several threads about successful Vinland, but what about something less spectacular-Azores and Madeira settled by Norse?

Vikings were around, raiding Iberia, also mouse bones from 10/11th century found in Madeira suggests, that Portuguese were not first people there and Norsemen likely preeceeded them, bringing said mouse to the island.

So what need to happen to make Norse presence in Macaronesia more permanent and what would be effects? Madeira and Azores are much warmer than Scandinavia, but still temperate enough for most of their crops, and not bad for sheep either, these islands should be far more hospitable for Norse settlers than Iceland or Faroe Islands and there is plenty of wood there for ship building.

 

[Revachah]

Norman Sicily had access to the first sugar plantations in Europe, if Normans were in contact with the broader Norse speaking world sugar could be brought to very isolated Azores for cultivation.

Sugar production and the trade of spices from Northern Africa to the port cities of Northern Europe would be lucrative.

Good luck keeping the Portuguese out of there though.

 

[Hvalrossen]

There are several threads about successful Vinland, but what about something less spectacular-Azores and Madeira settled by Norse?

Vikings were around, raiding Iberia, also mouse bones from 10/11th century found in Madeira suggests, that Portuguese were not first people there and Norsemen likely preeceeded them, bringing said mouse to the island.

So what need to happen to make Norse presence in Macaronesia more permanent and what would be effects? Madeira and Azores are much warmer than Scandinavia, but still temperate enough for most of their crops, and not bad for sheep either, these islands should be far more hospitable for Norse settlers than Iceland or Faroe Islands and there is plenty of wood there for ship building.

If Macaronesia had been as close to the Norse homeland then it is likely the islands would have been settled similar to north atlantic islands such as Faroes, Shetland, Iceland, etc. My guess is that the Norse visitors were mostly men, probably part of a raiding/trading expedition. Should one of the visitors ever get the idea that he would liket to settle these islands, then it would be possible.

Also if Madeira and the Azores get settled, is it likely that the Canaries and Cape Verde would get settled too?

 

[Musadutoe]

My thoughts are similar to @Hvalrossen. There would need to be a compelling reason other then being tired of the cold weather and wanting to get away from everyone.

The islands would need to be closer to the mainland, there would need to be some metals or semi-precious+ stones or there being fauna worth hunting.

With that being said, a Norse settlement, thriving for a couple hundred of years off of the beaten path in Madeira or the Azores would make for a good story.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

If Macaronesia had been as close to the Norse homeland then it is likely the islands would have been settled similar to north atlantic islands such as Faroes, Shetland, Iceland, etc. My guess is that the Norse visitors were mostly men, probably part of a raiding/trading expedition. Should one of the visitors ever get the idea that he would liket to settle these islands, then it would be possible.

Also if Madeira and the Azores get settled, is it likely that the Canaries and Cape Verde would get settled too?

Settlers don't need to be purely Norse, as they may take women from Iberia for example or may be mixed Norse-Iberian from the start (like first settlers in Iceland and Faroe were mixture of Norse and Celtic people.

 

[Hvalrossen]

Settlers don't need to be purely Norse, as they may take women from Iberia for example or may be mixed Norse-Iberian from the start (like first settlers in Iceland and Faroe were mixture of Norse and Celtic people.

Good point!

The islands would need to be closer to the mainland, there would need to be some metals or semi-precious+ stones or there being fauna worth hunting.

Being closer to the Norse homeland is a plus, but not a necessity.

 

[Iacobus]

I can think of two sources of women for Norse settlers in the Atlantic: Celts and Guanches.

Celts would be easy to bring along both as wives and thralls since they can be picked up along the way. Maybe Saxons would come along too. They'll be passing through the English Channel.

Guanches are relatively nearby and easy to integrate being outside a major state and religious padagram.

Some Norse women would come along eventually. Usually a few women were retainers for Viking expeditions.

 

[Iacobus]

Resource wise the Islands of the Atlantic have rich maritime resources including fish and whales, ideal for Norsemen. Yes they're good places for sheep. They're good for crops as well if they can acquire the right cultivars for a warmer environment.

I think if the islands are established as Norse colonies then as soon as the Reconquesta is effectively over in the 1200s Denmark/Norway will struggle to compete with Portugal for dominance of local waters. Or England. The latter might claim the islands as an inherited claim maybe...

 

[Coluber]

I must say that I hate this scenario. Madeira and the Azores are Portuguese forever! Just like Angola. And Brazil.
Shoo vikings! Shoo!

 

[Some Bloke]

If they can keep trade and contact going, foreign powers might try hiring them as mercenaries.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Scandinavian kingdoms are way too far to achieve any suzerainty over Madeira and Azores, but wouldn't any of Iberian kingdom conquer them eventually?

 

[lefthandhummingbird]

There is a problem with the currents. Look at this map:

As you can see, the currents of the North Atlantic are not really conducive to travel from the Nordic countries to Macaronesia. Likewise, the prevailing winds blow from the west to the east, which means that you don't really have a good chance to get to the Azores with a square-rigged ship -- it might even be better to travel by way of Iceland, Greenland and North America than to go straight from Iberia! Now, the Norse were of course very good sailors, but this scenario would require a large amount of luck in discovering the islands, and then some quite impressive feats of sailing to get back to them. The best bet would probably be adapting Norse ships to replace their square sail with one or more lateen sails and beating against the wind, which would mean that they've basically invented the rig of the caravel 400 years early.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

There is a problem with the currents. Look at this map:

As you can see, the currents of the North Atlantic are not really conducive to travel from the Nordic countries to Macaronesia. Likewise, the prevailing winds blow from the west to the east, which means that you don't really have a good chance to get to the Azores with a square-rigged ship -- it might even be better to travel by way of Iceland, Greenland and North America than to go straight from Iberia! Now, the Norse were of course very good sailors, but this scenario would require a large amount of luck in discovering the islands, and then some quite impressive feats of sailing to get back to them. The best bet would probably be adapting Norse ships to replace their square sail with one or more lateen sails and beating against the wind, which would mean that they've basically invented the rig of the caravel 400 years early.

Discovering Macaronesia isn't main problem as there is strong evidence that Norse already visited Madeira (see opening post). There is just need to bring settlers (even few dozens) there.

 

[lefthandhummingbird]

Discovering Macaronesia isn't main problem as there is strong evidence that Norse already visited Madeira (see opening post). There is just need to bring settlers (even few dozens) there.

Madeira is admittedly easier than the Azores, being roughly on the Canary Current. I'm assuming that the culture of such a place would be quite influenced by whichever culture the Norse choose to abduct or buy women from (unfortunately, that seems more likely than moving female Norse settlers there -- the type of person who would head out to settle a distant land would be one who didn't have many prospects at home, hence unmarried).

 

[Gloss]

Madeira is admittedly easier than the Azores, being roughly on the Canary Current. I'm assuming that the culture of such a place would be quite influenced by whichever culture the Norse choose to abduct or buy women from (unfortunately, that seems more likely than moving female Norse settlers there -- the type of person who would head out to settle a distant land would be one who didn't have many prospects at home, hence unmarried).

The Norse would have more males than females but the situation of Iceland was not one where a random group of Norwegians took just women from Celtic countries and brought them to Iceland, rather colonization happened also with mixed Norse-Celtic settlers, which naturally incorporated people with Celtic lineages and naturally the newer arriving and dominant group, the Norse, were overrepresented in the amount of males vs females, a pattern virtually universal to the human experience.
This doesn't mean that no women from afar would come to Macaronesia, in fact if colonization happens directly from the British isles then we would see a similar situation to Iceland, which insofar as it matters for Macaronesia means that the Norse would have effectively brought people from home, just not from Scandinavia. Afterall about 40% of Icelandic mtDna lineages are still Scandinavian.

There is a problem with the currents. Look at this map:


As you can see, the currents of the North Atlantic are not really conducive to travel from the Nordic countries to Macaronesia. Likewise, the prevailing winds blow from the west to the east, which means that you don't really have a good chance to get to the Azores with a square-rigged ship -- it might even be better to travel by way of Iceland, Greenland and North America than to go straight from Iberia! Now, the Norse were of course very good sailors, but this scenario would require a large amount of luck in discovering the islands, and then some quite impressive feats of sailing to get back to them. The best bet would probably be adapting Norse ships to replace their square sail with one or more lateen sails and beating against the wind, which would mean that they've basically invented the rig of the caravel 400 years early.

The Azores were discovered a generation before the caravel was, but I guess the lateen sail could be adopted naturally if Norse ships have to regularly move from the Mediterranean to the Atlantic and vice versa which can be set up with a good PoD which would in any case need to the Norse to be more involved in Iberia and Morocco to end up in those islands.