WI: Nobunaga Oda Survived Honnō-ji Incident

OTL Nobunaga dies Honno-ji Incident and become Isolationist. TTL Nobunaga never died and Escape Honno-ji Incident
What happened Buddhist and Shinto?
Would Nobunaga Converted Catholic Christianity?
Would Sakoku Never Happened?
Would Ecchi Never Existed?
Would Manga and Anime Never Existed?
Would Japan Westernized?
 
He still has to conquer the Mori Clan, the Chosokabe and Shimazu, then he would have to turn East and defeat the Hojo Clan and the Northern Clans like the Date. So he still has a way to go before unification

Even then, there’s also the fact, if Akechi Mitsuhide still does betray him, and Nobunaga just survives the attempt, he’ll have to deal with Akechi first

Also, are you just trolling with a few of those last questions?
 
OTL Nobunaga dies Honno-ji Incident and become Isolationist. TTL Nobunaga never died and Escape Honno-ji Incident
What happened Buddhist and Shinto?
Would Nobunaga Converted Catholic Christianity?
Would Sakoku Never Happened?
Would Ecchi Never Existed?
Would Manga and Anime Never Existed?
Would Japan Westernized?
Some of these questions are impossible to answer tbh. With that being said, Nobunaga would probably prevail over Mitsuhide eventually. A big question would be whether his eldest son Nobutada also survives since Nobutada is attacked too. If Nobutada dies, the new heir would either be Nobutada’s 2 year old Sanboshi or another of Nobunaga’s sons.
 
He still has to conquer the Mori Clan, the Chosokabe and Shimazu, then he would have to turn East and defeat the Hojo Clan and the Northern Clans like the Date. So he still has a way to go before unification

Even then, there’s also the fact, if Akechi Mitsuhide still does betray him, and Nobunaga just survives the attempt, he’ll have to deal with Akechi first

Also, are you just trolling with a few of those last questions?
this timeline Sakoku Never Happened?
 
Some of these questions are impossible to answer tbh. With that being said, Nobunaga would probably prevail over Mitsuhide eventually. A big question would be whether his eldest son Nobutada also survives since Nobutada is attacked too. If Nobutada dies, the new heir would either be Nobutada’s 2 year old Sanboshi or another of Nobunaga’s sons.
This Timeline Ecchi Never Exist
 
He still has to conquer the Mori Clan, the Chosokabe and Shimazu, then he would have to turn East and defeat the Hojo Clan and the Northern Clans like the Date. So he still has a way to go before unification

I think he'd have an easier time than Hideyoshi would have
 
I think he'd have an easier time than Hideyoshi would have
I actually think it’d be more the opposite, though with some caveats.

Hideyoshi was more pragmatic, as he knew how to make allies out of former enemies, like he did with the Chosokabe, Shimazu and Mori Clans, who become loyal to varied degrees after his unification.

Nobunaga on the other hand, would more likely dispose any rival clans, like he did to the Takeda or Azai, in favor of someone more loyal. So, if Nobunaga was still around, his unification might be more bloodier.
 
What happened Buddhist and Shinto?
Would Nobunaga Converted Catholic Christianity?
Shinto-Buddhism will probably not be too affected, and Nobunaga converting remains very unlikely. Nobunaga welcomed missionaries not out of a profound interest in God, but as a way to break the power of the temples. The Buddhist temples in Japan during this period were wealthy, influential, and staffed by heavily armed warrior monks, not exactly the picture of pacifistic separation from worldly affairs. Similiarly, Catholic Christianity isn't exactly free of geopolitical interference, given the missionaries owe their allegiance to the Iberian powers. If there is a danger of Japan becoming a target for colonization or manipulation by said powers via the missionaries, Nobunaga will put his foot down the same way the Tokugawa did IOTL.

Would Sakoku Never Happened?
Sakoku is actually a translated term derived from Western perceptions of the Tokugawa's foreign policy, which is simplified as isolationism. The reality is that Japan never really closed itself off from the world completely, but placed heavy restrictions on trade interactions. Korea and the Dutch were both able to trade under such restrictions, allowing for Chinese and European knowledge to flow into Japan. In fact, trade with the Dutch allowed Japan to remain updated in advances in European knowledge, called Rangaku. It was not as if the Japanese were completely clueless as to how hopelessly outclassed they were by Perry. They already knew via the Dutch books they had translated.

Would Sakoku Never Happened?
Would Ecchi Never Existed?
Would Manga and Anime Never Existed?
Would Japan Westernized?
Regardless, that's way too far down the line to predict.
 
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There's no marker on this thread yet so I can response XD

(OTL Nobunaga dies Honno-ji Incident and become Isolationist. TTL Nobunaga never died and Escape Honno-ji Incident)

Oda had been drawn from his slumber by the distant sounds of worried pacing and now quite familiarly heavy but smooth foot fall. Forcing himself up, he was unsurprised that, upon leaving his chambers, to see Yasuke pacing nearby.

His towering companion bowed low, "I offer my sincerest apologies for disturbing your slumber my lord."

Waving the man off Oda looked over Yasuke's tense frame and nodded, "We should have tea, then you can tell me what has a warrior of your caliber in such a state."

After the servants left them, Oda took a gentle sip of the brew and waited for Yasuke to do the same before pressing him, "So, what had you pacing near my chambers?"

Yasuke was, by training and circumstance, a rather sever and serious man; affable in victory to be sure, but he'd spent too long in chains to be anything but restrained in his manner. Thus, reading his emotions was always something of a challenge, but if Oda had to guess he'd say the man looked almost embarrassed.

"It feels juvenile my lord, but... I was troubled in my sleep by a strange dream, not a night terror or a memory but something that felt stranger and more real."

"Dreams can tell us much, what did you see?"

"Do you recall the fox we spied on the ride here?" At his nod, Yasuke continued. "I saw it again, only it did not race into the brush. Instead it met my gaze and began to smile in a way all to like a cunning and cruel man would. It came to have far too many teeth, its eyes mired by a cruel sort of mockery. I smelled fire on the air and then... I awoke." He shook his, "Forgive me, it should be nothing."

Oda was not a terribly spiritual man, he showed respect where it was due, and honored his ancestors appropriately however and so well acquainted with the Kami.

"Tell me... Have you heard of the Kitsune?" As Yasuke shook his head Oda felt his stomach churn uncomfortably, it was likely nothing and yet...

"They are Yoki, trickster and at times messengers or mischief makers, they bear nine tails and hold power among the spirits. Perhaps you were granted a vision."

Yasuke absorbed the information with his usual diligence and focus, a silent hum on his lips, "If that is the case and you believe it to be something of merit... Would the dread I felt upon waking mean something?"

"It could mean many things," Oda mused, "As to what I cannot say. But," He swirled his tea lazily, "It would ease my mind and yours to have the perimeter inspected before returning to sleep I think."

Yasuke offered a bow, naturally volunteering himself for the task.

Oda had thought the matter settled, if there was some assassin skulking about then Yasuke would find and dispense with them in short order and if it was nothing then clearly they both needed a rest from constant battles if a moment of peace left them so anxious.

He had not expected the distant sounds of battle to ring out, but he was ready for it in the way all old soldiers were. Flinging himself up he and his remaining guards were armored and racing out in time to see several bands of warriors bearing down on his temple.

"Find Yasuke and break through their lines!" he barked, as they raced away.

It did not take long to find the giant of a man, racing away from a massacred platoon of would be assassins with his surviving scouts and towards them, his blades and armor coated in others blood, "My lord!" He cried, jubilant.

Despite the grim tidings Oda felt a smile on his lips, Yasuke truly was a divine give of a friend.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________​
Yeah I mostly just wanted to focus on Yasuke XD

Anyway I figure they save Oda's son and the traitor is slaughtered in short order. Oda resolves himself to no rest until Japan is unified and once he succeeds he takes some carefully chosen title that lets him be the big man in charge without officially overstepping any of his bounds religiously or politically. He was also likely more brutal than his OTL successor, less forgiving to those that didn't bend the knee and thus his war took longer but also ended with a far more centralized government.

I'm also choosing to say Ysauke maybe married Oda's sister Oichi and was awared a lot of lands and a cool palace for his serve. He likely had a subtle hobby of purchasing and free or otherwise just generally freeing other African slave that came through certain ports. One welcomed by Oda due to the high esteem he holds his friend in.

As to the other questions,

(What happened Buddhist and Shinto & Would Nobunaga have Converted Catholic Christianity?)
He was will not convert to Christianity. Letting them in was mostly just a means of easing trade with the Europeans and using them as a tool to weaken the Buddhists. No way is Oda gonna convert to some distant foreign religion that demands he convert others and risk the ensuing political shit storm of that. The moment the budhists are sufficiently weakened and he can produce his own ships and guns ETC, the Christians will get the same marching orders as everyone else, "Toe the line or get fucked." Shinto will be fine cos they don't present an organized threat.

(Would Japan Westernize?)
A little but not much, OTL Japan picked up plenty of useful weapons and the like from their trade with Europe but politically the Europeans seem to have made rather minimal inroads, especially as they could not yet project much power in the region so there's no reason for Japan to start mimicking their cultural institutions.

They might start colonizing a bit, but that'd be standard imperial ambition over anything weirder. They might go to Kore like OTL though likely under different circumstances and with different methods which may net them more success. Or they may set about securing any and all surrounding islands on the principle of "Well I don't want anyone else having them." Or even consider swinging by the Americas seeing as the Portuguese and Spanish apparently had such a profitable time there.
 
There's no marker on this thread yet so I can response XD

(OTL Nobunaga dies Honno-ji Incident and become Isolationist. TTL Nobunaga never died and Escape Honno-ji Incident)

Oda had been drawn from his slumber by the distant sounds of worried pacing and now quite familiarly heavy but smooth foot fall. Forcing himself up, he was unsurprised that, upon leaving his chambers, to see Yasuke pacing nearby.

His towering companion bowed low, "I offer my sincerest apologies for disturbing your slumber my lord."

Waving the man off Oda looked over Yasuke's tense frame and nodded, "We should have tea, then you can tell me what has a warrior of your caliber in such a state."

After the servants left them, Oda took a gentle sip of the brew and waited for Yasuke to do the same before pressing him, "So, what had you pacing near my chambers?"

Yasuke was, by training and circumstance, a rather sever and serious man; affable in victory to be sure, but he'd spent too long in chains to be anything but restrained in his manner. Thus, reading his emotions was always something of a challenge, but if Oda had to guess he'd say the man looked almost embarrassed.

"It feels juvenile my lord, but... I was troubled in my sleep by a strange dream, not a night terror or a memory but something that felt stranger and more real."

"Dreams can tell us much, what did you see?"

"Do you recall the fox we spied on the ride here?" At his nod, Yasuke continued. "I saw it again, only it did not race into the brush. Instead it met my gaze and began to smile in a way all to like a cunning and cruel man would. It came to have far too many teeth, its eyes mired by a cruel sort of mockery. I smelled fire on the air and then... I awoke." He shook his, "Forgive me, it should be nothing."

Oda was not a terribly spiritual man, he showed respect where it was due, and honored his ancestors appropriately however and so well acquainted with the Kami.

"Tell me... Have you heard of the Kitsune?" As Yasuke shook his head Oda felt his stomach churn uncomfortably, it was likely nothing and yet...

"They are Yoki, trickster and at times messengers or mischief makers, they bear nine tails and hold power among the spirits. Perhaps you were granted a vision."

Yasuke absorbed the information with his usual diligence and focus, a silent hum on his lips, "If that is the case and you believe it to be something of merit... Would the dread I felt upon waking mean something?"

"It could mean many things," Oda mused, "As to what I cannot say. But," He swirled his tea lazily, "It would ease my mind and yours to have the perimeter inspected before returning to sleep I think."

Yasuke offered a bow, naturally volunteering himself for the task.

Oda had thought the matter settled, if there was some assassin skulking about then Yasuke would find and dispense with them in short order and if it was nothing then clearly they both needed a rest from constant battles if a moment of peace left them so anxious.

He had not expected the distant sounds of battle to ring out, but he was ready for it in the way all old soldiers were. Flinging himself up he and his remaining guards were armored and racing out in time to see several bands of warriors bearing down on his temple.

"Find Yasuke and break through their lines!" he barked, as they raced away.

It did not take long to find the giant of a man, racing away from a massacred platoon of would be assassins with his surviving scouts and towards them, his blades and armor coated in others blood, "My lord!" He cried, jubilant.

Despite the grim tidings Oda felt a smile on his lips, Yasuke truly was a divine give of a friend.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________​
Yeah I mostly just wanted to focus on Yasuke XD

Anyway I figure they save Oda's son and the traitor is slaughtered in short order. Oda resolves himself to no rest until Japan is unified and once he succeeds he takes some carefully chosen title that lets him be the big man in charge without officially overstepping any of his bounds religiously or politically. He was also likely more brutal than his OTL successor, less forgiving to those that didn't bend the knee and thus his war took longer but also ended with a far more centralized government.

I'm also choosing to say Ysauke maybe married Oda's sister Oichi and was awared a lot of lands and a cool palace for his serve. He likely had a subtle hobby of purchasing and free or otherwise just generally freeing other African slave that came through certain ports. One welcomed by Oda due to the high esteem he holds his friend in.

As to the other questions,

(What happened Buddhist and Shinto & Would Nobunaga have Converted Catholic Christianity?)
He was will not convert to Christianity. Letting them in was mostly just a means of easing trade with the Europeans and using them as a tool to weaken the Buddhists. No way is Oda gonna convert to some distant foreign religion that demands he convert others and risk the ensuing political shit storm of that. The moment the budhists are sufficiently weakened and he can produce his own ships and guns ETC, the Christians will get the same marching orders as everyone else, "Toe the line or get fucked." Shinto will be fine cos they don't present an organized threat.

(Would Japan Westernize?)
A little but not much, OTL Japan picked up plenty of useful weapons and the like from their trade with Europe but politically the Europeans seem to have made rather minimal inroads, especially as they could not yet project much power in the region so there's no reason for Japan to start mimicking their cultural institutions.

They might start colonizing a bit, but that'd be standard imperial ambition over anything weirder. They might go to Kore like OTL though likely under different circumstances and with different methods which may net them more success. Or they may set about securing any and all surrounding islands on the principle of "Well I don't want anyone else having them." Or even consider swinging by the Americas seeing as the Portuguese and Spanish apparently had such a profitable time there.
I mean, anomalous as Yasuke's very existence is, I don't know if Nobunaga is that eccentric to marry his sister to him. Granted, there isn't a great variety of prospective wives of Sub-Saharan origin to choose from in Japan (then and now), but Nobunaga would more likely marry a retainer's sister to him instead. Oichi's more useful wedded to another daimyo like her previous husband, Yoshikage Asakura.

Other than that, nice story. :p
 
I mean, anomalous as Yasuke's very existence is, I don't know if Nobunaga is that eccentric to marry his sister to him. Granted, there isn't a great variety of prospective wives of Sub-Saharan origin to choose from in Japan (then and now), but Nobunaga would more likely marry a retainer's sister to him instead. Oichi's more useful wedded to another daimyo like her previous husband, Yoshikage Asakura.

Other than that, nice story. :p
Yeah that's fair, I was probably reaching with that one but figured "He saved my life" and the man's general high regard for him might have played into it. But yeah, an arranged marriage with someone from another retainer family is likely.

Thanks, glad you liked it!
 
Sakoku is actually a translated term derived from Western perceptions of the Tokugawa's foreign policy, which is simplified as isolationism. The reality is that Japan never really closed itself off from the world completely, but placed heavy restrictions on trade interactions. Korea and the Dutch were both able to trade under such restrictions, allowing for Chinese and European knowledge to flow into Japan. In fact, trade with the Dutch allowed Japan to remain updated in advances in European knowledge, called Rangaku. It was not as if the Japanese were completely clueless as to how hopelessly outclassed they were by Perry. They already knew via the Dutch books they had translated.

I think this is downplaying it quite a bit. I frankly don't know what to call a policy that prohibits any Japanese person from attempting to leave the country on pain of death and any foreign person from entering the country on pain of death if not isolationism. Sure, outside trade continued with a handful of countries and in extremely small volumes, but those were the exceptions that proved the rule. Japan was, to a very important degree, truly closed.

Knowledge of the outside world derived from the study of Dutch books was extremely patchy at best. Rangaku was banned at times, frowned upon in others, and at best it as seen as a mere curiosity, a quirky hobby for a portion of the educated classes. It had virtually no impact on very little impact on the country and Japan adopted no new technology until the late 19th century. It truly was a country frozen in time by the time Perry arrived.

Things would have been very different without Iemitsu's edicts
 
Did Oda have any designs on Korea? If not then that butterflies the Imjin War, with no doubt massive consequences for Korea and perhaps significant financial ones for China, which I understand was providing critical support to the Koreans.
 
Did Oda have any designs on Korea? If not then that butterflies the Imjin War, with no doubt massive consequences for Korea and perhaps significant financial ones for China, which I understand was providing critical support to the Koreans.
the question is...we don't know. Hideyoshi used Korea to try to get legitimacy and send unloyal samurai to die there, Nobunaga might not need it but who knows?
 
Did Oda have any designs on Korea? If not then that butterflies the Imjin War, with no doubt massive consequences for Korea and perhaps significant financial ones for China, which I understand was providing critical support to the Koreans.
the question is...we don't know. Hideyoshi used Korea to try to get legitimacy and send unloyal samurai to die there, Nobunaga might not need it but who knows?
From what I recall, Hideyoshi CLAIMED that his predecessor Oda Nobunaga had intentions of invading the rest of Asia, but we don’t know if Hideyoshi just made that up as part of his justification to invade China through Korea, or if Nobunaga just said it but never really intended to. Another I recall, Nobunaga was the same person who claimed to be one of the Demon Kings of Hell… as a joke in a letter he wrote
 
From what I recall, Hideyoshi CLAIMED that his predecessor Oda Nobunaga had intentions of invading the rest of Asia, but we don’t know if Hideyoshi just made that up as part of his justification to invade China through Korea, or if Nobunaga just said it but never really intended to. Another I recall, Nobunaga was the same person who claimed to be one of the Demon Kings of Hell… as a joke in a letter he wrote
He could try to colonize Taiwan, though switching the difficulty of invading an established naval power for malaria, heat stroke and uppity natives doesn't sound like a good trade.
 
He could try to colonize Taiwan, though switching the difficulty of invading an established naval power for malaria, heat stroke and uppity natives doesn't sound like a good trade.
It's a good way to get rid of people you don't like and/or don't trust.
 
What happened Buddhist and Shinto?
Nobunaga was known for his efforts to weaken the political influence of Buddhist temples and monasteries. If he survived the Honno-ji Incident, it's likely that he would continue these policies and further reduce the power of the Buddhist establishment. Shinto, being a native religion, might gain more prominence, and its shrines could see increased support from the ruling authorities.
Would Nobunaga Converted Catholic Christianity?
It's less likely that Nobunaga would convert to Christianity himself. While he was known for embracing some foreign influences, such as firearms and European-style architecture, he was primarily focused on consolidating power and unifying Japan under his rule. It's possible that he might tolerate Christianity to some extent for its trade and technological benefits, but outright conversion seems unlikely.
Would Sakoku Never Happened?
The Sakoku policy of isolation was primarily implemented during the Tokugawa Shogunate, which came after Nobunaga's era. If Nobunaga survived and continued to exert his influence, the subsequent political landscape might differ. The Tokugawa Shogunate might not have risen to power, and the strict isolationist policies of Sakoku might not have been enforced in the same way or at all.
Would Ecchi Never Existed?
It's challenging to predict the exact impact on entertainment and media censorship in this alternate timeline. Nobunaga was known for being pragmatic and focused on centralizing authority, so he might have imposed some level of control over cultural productions to maintain political stability. However, the nature and extent of censorship would depend on the specific policies adopted by Nobunaga and his successors.
Would Manga and Anime Never Existed?
The development of manga and anime is a complex cultural and artistic phenomenon that arose over centuries. While the specifics might be different, the essence of Japanese storytelling and artistic expression would likely still exist, albeit shaped by different historical events and cultural influences.
Would Japan Westernized?
The Tokugawa Shogunate implemented policies that closed Japan off from most of the world, contributing to a period of relative isolation. In this alternate timeline, if the Tokugawa Shogunate does not rise to power, Japan might have more extensive interactions with the outside world. This could lead to a different pattern of trade, cultural exchange, and influence from Western powers, potentially leading to a different form of modernization and globalization.
 
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