Were German, Italin and Russian community leaders also rounded up and arrested?
WI: No Japanese-American Internment
- Thread starter vega
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Were German, Italin and Russian community leaders also rounded up and arrested?
Lateknight
Banned
No for some mysterious reason they were not, if your agruing that interment was a good thing I'm going to disagree vehemently. I think your lumping our Japanese with the the other Japanese which is simply wrong.
I'll continue to emphsise the fact that the Japanese have relatively recent immigration history to the United States and had close connections to the Home Islands, and the fact that Americans reached a blood-boil rate of anti-Japanese sentiment by the end of the war; without Japanese Internment God knows how many angry Americans would try to lynch Japanese-Americans.
Let's not forget the United States was the same country that ultimately came as far as this:
British Republic
Banned
Bear in mind though that the American Government did actually investigate on the loyalties of Japanese-Americans living in the Western United States, when the report was finished its author (Curtis B. Munson) stated in it that while there were some isues, by and large they where very loyal to the United States.
Asami
Banned
If so, in a historical twist the Hawaii Democratic Revolution of 1954 may turn violent and result in independent Hawaii.
Do not forget, out of 6 principal leaders of revolution of 1954, 3 were of Japanese ancestry. With more US-living citizens sent to European front, both number of veteran Japanese ancestry survivors and their resentment of the "cannon fodder" tactics of US leadership will drastically increase (casualties among US Japanese in Europe were 93%). I can imagine Daniel Inouye declaring independence of Hawaii or some of Hawaii islands (with some Soviet assistance) in ~1958. As soon as Sovier R-7 Semyorka ICBM development is complete in 1957, the Pacific coast is in range of fire from Hawaii. Look on this like on the Pacific version of the Cuban Missile Crisis.
I'm sorry, what? The Soviet Union encouraging a piece of the United States to secede would just lead to a war -- or the US would basically go "fine, fuck you" and start actively backing anti-Communists in Eastern Europe, where they kept themselves out mostly. Eisenhower would actively back the Hungarian revolution in 1956, the Czechoslovak one in 1968, he'd probably support Tito against the USSR, et al. -- It'd be a full on race to see how they can implode the USSR; and the US would win, by the way. The Russians hadn't a chance in hell.
The U.S. would then basically find every way to fuck with the Russians, and outright support secessionism (see: Baltic States).
That's assuming the Americans didn't just sink any Russian ship or blow any Russian plane out of the sky that goes anywhere near Hawai'i.
If I may ask, who were they investigating? The ones interned or the ones in the Army?
Furthermore is there possibility of this changing if the Japanese-Americans were to come in direct contact with the rise of anti-Japanese sentiment throughout the war?
Lateknight
Banned
I'll continue to emphsise the fact that the Japanese have relatively recent immigration history to the United States and had close connections to the Home Islands, and the fact that Americans reached a blood-boil rate of anti-Japanese sentiment by the end of the war; without Japanese Internment God knows how many angry Americans would try to lynch Japanese-Americans.
Let's not forget the United States was the same country that ultimately came as far as this:
If there wasn't riots right after pearl habor there wasn't going to be riots it's like if the U.S. desided to intern Arab Americans in 2004. That excuse that it was for the safety of the Japanese Americans looks thin especially since it was never the reasoning of the politicians who inacted interment.
Asami
Banned
You're overblowing the whole anti-Japanese thing; honestly. Americans were anti-Japanese, yes, but they weren't going to start killing them indiscriminately or relegating them to third-class status behind blacks. There were many racial spats, but not full-on riots.
>Arab Americans
Don't you mean Iraqi Americans? Or do you mean to say Muslims in general?
Also I never argued that the reason why I believe the internment was necessary is same with that of the politician - FDR - who ordered the internment. Particularly when I was arguing the anti-Japanese sentiment was being accumulated over an extended period, not exploded right after 1941.
I use this quote to assist my argument:
Even before this quote there was mention of a "Jap hunting license", a faux-governmental document allowing the "hunt". Not only does this quote show that anti-Japanese sentiment was reinforced over time, not exploded, but also that Americans did hate the Japanese more than Germans or Italians; sure, we didn't see full-on riots OTL. But if Japanese-Americans were in direct interaction with other Americans during the course of the war I wouldn't remove such riots from being a possibility. Scrap that, quote me on saying the possibilities of such riots occurring very high. Extremely high.
If so, in a historical twist the Hawaii Democratic Revolution of 1954 may turn violent and result in independent Hawaii.
Do not forget, out of 6 principal leaders of revolution of 1954, 3 were of Japanese ancestry. With more US-living citizens sent to European front, both number of veteran Japanese ancestry survivors and their resentment of the "cannon fodder" tactics of US leadership will drastically increase (casualties among US Japanese in Europe were 93%
For a preview of how a territory violently succeeding from the USA would go down, please see the Civil War. Except now it's one territory against the entire continental US, which already has significant military units deployed in that territory, which will presumably stay loyal. The USSR aint going to touch an independent Hawaii with a ten foot pole, else the US and NATO are going to have casus belli to begin openly interfering with any Eastern European country that wants to escape the smothering embrace of Mother Russia. And it would be hilariously optimistic to say that Hawaii has perhaps two weeks in this scenario before it's forcibly subjugated, courtesy of the USMC. I mean, what are you going to do, try to seize Pearl Harbor in a coup de main and then fight off a USN attack with a bunch of untrained recruits operating undermanned ships?
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The internment was not total for the duration of the war. Release was possible to states away from the Pacific coast, when there were sponsors and the promise of work or school. Thousands left the camps every year through such releases, tens of thousands by the end of the war. So there was frequent contact between white and Japanese Americans; there were no such incidents of lynchings as you suggest. Those fears are far overblown.
BS. As I stated above, tens of thousands of Japanese Americans were released during the war. From a high of over 110,000 in May 1942, by January 1944 there were 92,000 remaining in camps, reduced further to 82,000 by June of that year. So there were tens of thousands of Japanese Americans interacting with white Americans during the height of the war. There were no race riots or lynchings. Your speculations do not stand up against historical facts.
Fearless Leader
Donor
I agree, at most you'd see sporadic isolated incidents of violence. More likely the general experience of racial antagonism comes down to non-violent discrimination, graffiti, and vandalism.
Interestingly enough, one side effect of avoiding the internment of Japanese Americans would be the removal of the conditions that created segregated ethnically Japanese units in the US Army.
I don't see many threads on this subject, but each I've seen has been characterized by the same level of ignorance and straw grasping. It's as if some people are allergic to basic research or fact checking.
trurle
Banned
I agree what the chances of pro-communist uprising on Hawaii would be slim from the military standpoint. Well, if i would be a Daniel Inoue in such situation..i will write a following plan.
1) Request independent Hawaiian legislature from Congress to amend racist and anti-communist legislation
2) Form parallel self-governance bodies, boycotting official ones if (1) has failed
3) Blockade Pearl Harbour and other USMC bases by peaceful civilian pickets if interference to (2) is too oppressive
4) Assassinate anti-communistic/racist US officials who have leaked through (3), and form self-defence militias
5) Declare Hawaiian mainland a demilitarized zone if bad practices are still enforced despite (3) and (4)
6) Smuggle some ICBM from Soviet Union to impose a balance of fear, if possible from social point (need over 90% local community support to keep secret long enough)
7) De-militarise Hawaii and took as much autonomy as necessary to prevent a recurrence of racial or anti-communist purges (if US will not dare to start a nuclear conflict)
You can see what Hawaiian independence is not the target, but it may become an outcome if US conflict reconciliation tactics will fail badly and repeatedly (7 times at least) due excess civilian-targeted violence. Exactly a worst case scenario for the US.
Of course, i do not propose the Hawaiian militia have to capture any US military base. It is a losing proposition even for blood-thirsty idiot like me.
Little Red Bean
Banned
There would be mass lynchings and general mob violence directed towards Japanese-Americans and Japanese-Canadians (and probably other Asians too) throughout the war all up and down the West Coast. White Americans and Canadians on the West Coast engaged in routine mob violence against Asian immigrants as recently as a generation before World War II and would be more than happy to do it again.
Not that this in any way justifies the actions of the United States or Canadian governments during or after internment.
Not that this in any way justifies the actions of the United States or Canadian governments during or after internment.
Asami
Banned
No there wouldn't. They didn't lynch or mob-kill any Japanese during this time-period, because there were many who were released during the war (before the general release).
It blows the mind that people think the situation of Japanese Americans would be worse had they not been interned.
Japanese-American internment is an dis-comforting subject for Americans who like to view their country as an unquestionable good guy in WWII. Anything to rationalize a racist policy as being "oh but it could've been worse for them" may thus seem appealing.