Famed Frenchman Marcel Bloch became more famous under another name, and became the cornerstone of the French aviation industry, amongst other things. However, he left Buchenwald paralyzed, with diphtheria, weighing 70 pounds. What does French post-war aviation look like without Marcel Dassault?
WI Marcel Bloch never left Buchenwald.
- Thread starter Just Leo
- Start date
Much different. I am not even aware of other jet construction in France. Morane Saulnier after war produced mostly trainers, Dewoitine emigrated after war to avoid prosecution. Maybe they would opt for license manufacturing US planes? SNCASE did manufacture Vampire.
Archibald
Banned
Massive butterflies. OTL From 1947 Bloch-Dassault snatched military aviation from the jaws of public companies and achieved complete success within a decade.
ITTL France military aircraft industry is up for a rough ride: even OTL the 1945- 1952 era was littered with very flawed "public companies" aircrafts like the SO-4000 jet bomber. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SNCASO_SO.4000
The SO-6020 Espadon was to be the AdA main jet fighter but was way too overweight and climbed like a lead sled (Dassault build the MD-450 Ouragan as a less sophisticated alternative, and won the day)
There is a very real risk that public jet aircrafts ends in failure and France buy its military jets from either GB or the USA. Even with Dassault success France bought DH Vampires and F-84 Thunderjets, plus some F-86D Sabre Dogs.
Something to be considered: you British complains that the interwar Air Ministry was BAD. Obviously you never checked Charles Tillon Ministère de l'air of 1946.
Overambitious aircraft specs were handled to struggling public companies that had been thoroughly ruined between 1940 and 1945. Because Tillon was a communist, there was no way a private company like Dassault could be handled the job of building weapons like jet fighters.
ITTL France military aircraft industry is up for a rough ride: even OTL the 1945- 1952 era was littered with very flawed "public companies" aircrafts like the SO-4000 jet bomber. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SNCASO_SO.4000
The SO-6020 Espadon was to be the AdA main jet fighter but was way too overweight and climbed like a lead sled (Dassault build the MD-450 Ouragan as a less sophisticated alternative, and won the day)
There is a very real risk that public jet aircrafts ends in failure and France buy its military jets from either GB or the USA. Even with Dassault success France bought DH Vampires and F-84 Thunderjets, plus some F-86D Sabre Dogs.
Something to be considered: you British complains that the interwar Air Ministry was BAD. Obviously you never checked Charles Tillon Ministère de l'air of 1946.
Overambitious aircraft specs were handled to struggling public companies that had been thoroughly ruined between 1940 and 1945. Because Tillon was a communist, there was no way a private company like Dassault could be handled the job of building weapons like jet fighters.
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Dewoitine was charged first by Vichy with treason, and post-war, with collaboration. However, when his life came to an end, he was on the loose in Toulouse.
Ye. I read somewhere he waited till they couldn't prosecute him before return.
But anyway. He was out of French fighter plane business.
Absolutely fascinating. I've sat here for a few minutes and wracked my brains, but I can't think of another individual post war figure who had such a huge influence on the aviation industry. Some have designed great aircraft, some (I'm looking at you Duncan Sandys) have done immeasurable damage with a few sheets of paper, and others have performed deeds of great heroism, but no one else is responsible for resurecting a nation's aviaton industry single handed.
If Bloch hadn't defied the odds so spectacularly, we would have been deprived of the Ouragan, Mystere, Mirage, Rafaele... Makes you think.
If Bloch hadn't defied the odds so spectacularly, we would have been deprived of the Ouragan, Mystere, Mirage, Rafaele... Makes you think.
How woul Israeli Air Force look like if Bloch didn't make it?Absolutely fascinating. I've sat here for a few minutes and wracked my brains, but I can't think of another individual post war figure who had such a huge influence on the aviation industry. Some have designed great aircraft, some (I'm looking at you Duncan Sandys) have done immeasurable damage with a few sheets of paper, and others have performed deeds of great heroism, but no one else is responsible for resurecting a nation's aviaton industry single handed.
If Bloch hadn't defied the odds so spectacularly, we would have been deprived of the Ouragan, Mystere, Mirage, Rafaele... Makes you think.
The Israeli Air Force would still be based on French jets, but which ones? There are only 5 options for nations manufacturing jet aircraft suitable to needs. The USSR picked a side, and it wasn't Jewish. The US didn't want to offend, until Kennedy sent Hawks to counter Soviet inroads. The British had too many Arab ties. Sweden didn't sell arms to anyone likely to use them. For a time, there was only France, but not Dassault.
The interesting point is that the Ouragan was built as a private venture, built without specification, and offered to an Air Ministry that didn't ask for it. Thus, there was no direct alternative at this point. Alternatives would appear later. The SO Vautour served and wasn't Dassault. The Breguet Taon appeared to have potential. Many were interesting, like the Leduc, and Nord Griffon, while others were just sad. Any good options?
Archibald
Banned
Israel bought Gloster Meteor F4s so GB wasn't out of the picture. But then their atempts at buying F-86s were thwarted, either in the USA or Canada. By 1956 they would be very pissed off. They also tried buying J-29s but sweden neutraility prevented that.
As for France... without Dassault, the AdA would have bought SO-6020 Espadon (swordfish) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sud-Ouest_Espadon
The Espadon wasn't a bad machine but it was plagued with weight growth, lack of engine power (Nene) and air intakes issues (unlike the Ouragan straightforward intake) In the end by 1954 one of the 4 build was the first supersonic French aircraft, with the help of a big rocket engine.
After Espadon, what ? the Trident will remain a dead end. Unlike the SE Durandal of 1956
Both all weather and bomber missions would go to the SNCASO Vautour
So in the end the public companies might pull it, but it will be slower and much less glamourous than Dassault.
The public companies were also pretty fragile and the French government was actively merging them into bigger and bigger companies.
Société Nationale de Construction d'Avion (SNCA)
SNCA = SNCF, but for aircrafts.
Four SNCA: North, Center, South-West, South-East. Center (SNCAC) went belly up in 1949, leaving the other three. The two south (SNCASO and SNCASE) were merged by 1957 into Sud Aviation, leaving Nord Aviation. The two were merged in 1970, creating Aerospatiale, later 1/3 of EADS.
As for France... without Dassault, the AdA would have bought SO-6020 Espadon (swordfish) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sud-Ouest_Espadon
The Espadon wasn't a bad machine but it was plagued with weight growth, lack of engine power (Nene) and air intakes issues (unlike the Ouragan straightforward intake) In the end by 1954 one of the 4 build was the first supersonic French aircraft, with the help of a big rocket engine.
After Espadon, what ? the Trident will remain a dead end. Unlike the SE Durandal of 1956
Both all weather and bomber missions would go to the SNCASO Vautour
So in the end the public companies might pull it, but it will be slower and much less glamourous than Dassault.
The public companies were also pretty fragile and the French government was actively merging them into bigger and bigger companies.
Société Nationale de Construction d'Avion (SNCA)
SNCA = SNCF, but for aircrafts.
Four SNCA: North, Center, South-West, South-East. Center (SNCAC) went belly up in 1949, leaving the other three. The two south (SNCASO and SNCASE) were merged by 1957 into Sud Aviation, leaving Nord Aviation. The two were merged in 1970, creating Aerospatiale, later 1/3 of EADS.
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In 1946, a requirement was issued for a naval fighter, and the entire French aircraft industry responded with 3 aircraft which first flew in 1949, and were tested. While the Navy might have liked for the Americans to belly up with 150 F9F5 Panthers, they chose for SNCASE to undertake license production of Sea Venom FAW.20, not yet flown, as Aquilon, powered by a Fiat-built Nene. While the British Sea Venom was fitted with AI Mk.X radar, the radar chosen for Aquilon was the APQ 65, which didn't fit. What they did to make it fit is uncertain and depends on source. Its use, as opposed to its mission, never required radar, but that's the weather for you. It's replacement in attack was the Etendard IV which doesn't exist, and in the fighter role, F8 Crusader.
Now there's a possible idea, Dewoitine doesn't manage to come to an agreement with the Vichy government and remains in the US for the duration. Post-war thanks to being charged with treason by Vichy he now has unimpeachable credentials and can return to France and working in the industry. I don't know enough about the man or post-war companies to have a good enough idea of how things might work out, it's also getting away from Just Leo's original idea.
In Argentina, Emile designed the Pulqui I fighter, powered by Derwent. It was disappointment.
One faintly amusing scenario would be Fairey testing their FD-2 out by Bordeaux, it catching the eye of one of the French government companies, and since the RAF and Air Ministry showed absolutely zero interest a production license being arranged. After some more development and minor changes France ends up with a Mirage-type aircraft and Fairey gets a nice income stream, considering their work with missiles during the period it would be interesting to see where they might go with it.
Yeah. Some of his pre-war designs looked pretty good, I wasn't sure whether his post-war Argentinian ones were more down to less resources than he would of had in France or more lack of skill when it came to jet powered rather than piston powered aircraft.
The Nord Gerfaut was the closest thing to FD2 at the time, and might have become something had not Dassault been better. It might have been better still with some Fairey dust sprinkled on it.
Thing to remember is that resources and facilities in France post-war were a bit tattered.
Archibald
Banned
One of the saddest story in French aviation, really. Four aircrafts were build: two Arsenal VG-90, one NC-1080, and one Nord 2200. Of the four, three crashed, killing three pilots. Only the Nord 2200 was a decent flying machine and not a death trap. Yet (once again) it was overweight while the Nene lacked power.
Both Gerfault and Trident and Griffon, while superb flying machines, were dead ends. The Durandal I mentionned earlier was closer from the Mirage III.
The Gerfault certainly had superlative performance but it was too small and carried only a small radar and a single missile.
More generally, France had missed the train of jet aircrafts in 1943-45 and many early prototypes (until 1952) were badly flawed, even more with early swept wings and all their kirks. The VG-90 is typical of that era: a beautiful, sleek machine at the first glance; a death trap while in flight.
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Archibald
Banned
Here is a tentative list of early French jet aircrafts according to SNCA
Arsenal de l'aéronautique (absorbed by Nord in 1955)
VG-70
VG-90
SNCAN (Nord):
Nord 2200
Gerfault (from Arsenal)
Griffon
SNCAC (Centre, bankrupt by 1949, dismantled)
NC-1080 (naval fighter)
SNCASO (Sud-Ouest)
- Triton (first French jet, 1946)
- Espadon
- Trident
- Vautour
SNCASE (Sud-Est)
- Licence-build DH Vampire (Mistral) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Vampire#France
- Licence-build DH Sea Venom (Aquilon)
- Durandal
Both SNCASE and SNCASO merged on April 1, 1957 creating Sud Aviation of Caravelle fame)
Arsenal de l'aéronautique (absorbed by Nord in 1955)
VG-70
VG-90
SNCAN (Nord):
Nord 2200
Gerfault (from Arsenal)
Griffon
SNCAC (Centre, bankrupt by 1949, dismantled)
NC-1080 (naval fighter)
SNCASO (Sud-Ouest)
- Triton (first French jet, 1946)
- Espadon
- Trident
- Vautour
SNCASE (Sud-Est)
- Licence-build DH Vampire (Mistral) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Vampire#France
- Licence-build DH Sea Venom (Aquilon)
- Durandal
Both SNCASE and SNCASO merged on April 1, 1957 creating Sud Aviation of Caravelle fame)
Israel did buy the SNCASO Vautour, in all 3 versions(all-weather fighter, bomber, attack). I think they, and India would go for the Breguet Taon instead of the Espadon. Breguet, in fact, may be able to take the place of Dassault here, if they manage to make money selling the Taon, and go on to the next generation of aircraft(they had a project that was very similar to the Mirage F1, in 1958 - without Dassault, it could very well be the Mirage of that reality).
Archibald
Banned
Louis Breguet died in 1955 but the company survived (OTL they were taken over by Dassault in 1967). Breguet might very much replace Dassault. The Taon was a transonic lightweight fighter like the Etendard and Gerfault and wouldn't go very far.
BUT
Breguet pretty much invented the Mirage F1 by 1959 (8 years before Dassault) with their Br.1120 Sirocco Mach 2 fighter for the French Navy (which prefred the much less expensive option of buying 42 Crusaders from the USA).
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=142.0
42 machines for the French navy won't be enough BUT without Dassault (and without the Mirage III) the AdA door is open, obviously. Unlike the Mirage III and much like its Mirage F1 "clone" the Sirocco is STOL, it might interest NATO in the early 60's.
Plus the British: for the record, the Jaguar was once the Breguet 121 - short for 1210. The Sirocco is the 1120 / 112, and maybe the RN could be interested. Such aircraft could operate from Ark Royal and Eagle and maybe from the smaller Hermes-class (or Centaur, but you got the point !)
Without the Mirage III, I can really see the SNCASE Durandal competing with the Sirocco, and maybe the flaws with pre-FBW delta wings could tip the balance in favor of Breguet.
BUT
Breguet pretty much invented the Mirage F1 by 1959 (8 years before Dassault) with their Br.1120 Sirocco Mach 2 fighter for the French Navy (which prefred the much less expensive option of buying 42 Crusaders from the USA).
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=142.0
42 machines for the French navy won't be enough BUT without Dassault (and without the Mirage III) the AdA door is open, obviously. Unlike the Mirage III and much like its Mirage F1 "clone" the Sirocco is STOL, it might interest NATO in the early 60's.
Plus the British: for the record, the Jaguar was once the Breguet 121 - short for 1210. The Sirocco is the 1120 / 112, and maybe the RN could be interested. Such aircraft could operate from Ark Royal and Eagle and maybe from the smaller Hermes-class (or Centaur, but you got the point !)
Without the Mirage III, I can really see the SNCASE Durandal competing with the Sirocco, and maybe the flaws with pre-FBW delta wings could tip the balance in favor of Breguet.
Archibald
Banned
The Vautour was an awesome machine in par with the Buccaneer but unlike the later S.2, the Vautour never got any upgrade. The bomber variant still had WWII vintage Norden sight. The Israelis used the Vautour in a way the AdA never did or even dreamed.The Israeli pilots training in France by 1958 noted that the AdA used their Vautour like WWII B-25 Mitchells, that is, straight line, medium altitude, daylight bombing.
An example: the Vautour was the only Israeli aircraft able to reach Luxor, at the bottom of Egypt ... and at the extreme edge of its combat radius. No issue for the Israeli pilots: they just shut one of the two jet engines and flew all the way to Luxor like this.
Also, at low level the Vautour was able to evade or even outrun Arab Hawker Hunters pretty easily.