WI: Magyars convert to Orthodoxy
- Thread starter Forbiddenparadise64
- Start date
The concept of a crusade didn't initially apply to Orthodox "schismatics". This only became a thing after the Fourth Crusade was diverted by secular leaders...and even then, the Holy Land remained the #1 priority of crusading.
Now, admittedly, there is a chance that some German figure will figure out crusading makes a good excuse for invading Hungary. A good chance, even. But this anti-Hungarian crusading won't start immediately, it won't be constant, and it will absolutely not have higher priority than the Levant. So there's really no reason to assume Orthodox Hungary would get crushed by the Germans.
(And even if a crusade does seize a part, or the whole, of Hungary - this won't necessarily destroy the Magyars, or any other ethnic group living in the state.)
In this scenario, Hungary probably becomes an Empire rather than a Kingdom. Potentially, Hungary could be one of the players vying to take over the Byzantine legacy and replace the Byzantine Empire with a hybrid empire of its own making. Like Serbia and Bulgaria were in OTL. But that's not guaranteed.
Now, admittedly, there is a chance that some German figure will figure out crusading makes a good excuse for invading Hungary. A good chance, even. But this anti-Hungarian crusading won't start immediately, it won't be constant, and it will absolutely not have higher priority than the Levant. So there's really no reason to assume Orthodox Hungary would get crushed by the Germans.
(And even if a crusade does seize a part, or the whole, of Hungary - this won't necessarily destroy the Magyars, or any other ethnic group living in the state.)
In this scenario, Hungary probably becomes an Empire rather than a Kingdom. Potentially, Hungary could be one of the players vying to take over the Byzantine legacy and replace the Byzantine Empire with a hybrid empire of its own making. Like Serbia and Bulgaria were in OTL. But that's not guaranteed.
Accepting the Latin rite had important political benefits that are difficult to forgo. By embracing Latin Christianity, Vajk/Stephen ensured the Papal recognition of his royal crown and title, which positioned him as a legitimate and independent monarch who thus had a stronger claim to independence than, say, Bohemia, a notable non-kingdom (until its later "promotion" by the emperors) which was subjugated by the German crown. "Going Greek," in contrast, gives few if any relative advantages to the Hungarians. It may improve their relations with the Byzantines, but the Byzantines were never as direct a threat to Hungary as the Germans, and a shared rite doesn't always make good friends (see: the Greeks and the Bulgarians). So, while I could certainly imagine a Greek-rite ruler coming to power - perhaps Gyula "the Younger" or another prince/chieftain in Transylvania, which was more eastwards-looking in the early days, ends up winning control of all Hungary during one of the early civil wars - it's harder to imagine why successive Hungarian rulers would keep that alignment without a major shift in the power and alignment of central/eastern Europe. Indeed, Béla III was raised in Constantinople, given a Greek name ("Alexios"), and held the rank of despotes, yet when he gained the crown of Hungary he sought (and received) the support of the Pope and was in every meaningful way a Catholic. To paraphrase Henry IV of France, apparently Esztergom was well worth a Latin mass.
I suspect you need a much broader and earlier change in the power structure of central/Eastern Europe to really make a long-term "Orthodox" Hungary workable.
I suspect you need a much broader and earlier change in the power structure of central/Eastern Europe to really make a long-term "Orthodox" Hungary workable.
TruthfulPanda
Gone Fishin'
To this I add the issue of lack of archbishop - Czechia - who had a bishop only - was eccelsiastically subordinate to a German Archbishop. This meant that:
1 - there was nobody to crown the Czech ruler as king, apparently there being a the custom that you needed an archbishop for that;
2 - whenever it was convenient for the German King/Emperor the Czech ruler could be excommunicated.
The German ecclesitic/feudal complex was furious with Otto III when he allowed Poland to get an archbishop.
A big do - or so I've read - with Poland's conversion was that the first bishop was a "missionary" bishop, subordinate directly to Rome and not Magdeburg.
One of the leading theories in regards of pre christian hunagry in regards of the hungarian nomadic state in the carpathian basin is that it fell apart to tribal states (theory of Gyula Kristó if i remember correctly). We know that some of the tribal chiefs actually converted to ortodoxy: Gyula in Transylvania for sure and most likely Ajtony as well (around the Maros river outside of Transylvania). Who converted to catholicism was the Árpád tribe and it was them who unified Hungary - see István(Stephan)'s wars against the tribal leaders. According to Kristó those leaders werent rebels but leaders of the independent tribal states. A unification by any other tribal leader - perhaps an ortodox one - could produce the requested result.
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Some effects of an orthodox Hungary:
Croatia is still Catholic however thats very different from todays Croatia. For instance Zagreb was the capital of Slavonia and one of the earliest Hungarian bishoprics - in this case likely orthodox. I have no idea how that will turn out in regards of a croatian nation later. I also dont see Hungary getting Croatia ITTL.
Another important point is that OTL germans did try to conquer Hugnary in 1052 and other times - they were repeatedly repulsed. The most they achieved (before the attacks) was a short lived vassal status of Hungary. So i dont see a hugely successfull german expansion as they tried and failed OTL. And later Germany was not unified enough to seriously try to conquer the whole. The most I see are minor border adjustments on the Austran border.
Croatia is still Catholic however thats very different from todays Croatia. For instance Zagreb was the capital of Slavonia and one of the earliest Hungarian bishoprics - in this case likely orthodox. I have no idea how that will turn out in regards of a croatian nation later. I also dont see Hungary getting Croatia ITTL.
Another important point is that OTL germans did try to conquer Hugnary in 1052 and other times - they were repeatedly repulsed. The most they achieved (before the attacks) was a short lived vassal status of Hungary. So i dont see a hugely successfull german expansion as they tried and failed OTL. And later Germany was not unified enough to seriously try to conquer the whole. The most I see are minor border adjustments on the Austran border.
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German success in Carpathian Basin depends from scale of fragmentation of Hungary ITTL. IOTL compared to Rus' or Poland, Kingdom of Hungary was not heavy affected by feudal fragmentation.
Which was the result of the unification I mentioned in my earlier post. The king seized most of the defeated tribal leaders's territories. This likely would be the same even after an orthodox unification. Just the dynasty wouldnt be Árpád.
Once united, Hungary could fell apart again very easily. One crisis of central power, ruler with large bunch of ambitious sons hating each other.
Mieszko I and Bolesław the Brave ruled as absolute monarchs, who treated Poland like their private property. And look what happened few generations later.
It could. However OTL in Hungary the king held more than 60% of the land (I think more but of this im sure) till Andras II (early 1200's), had a ton of dynastycal infighting for the throne and never fragmented under the Árpád dynasty. Yes, you can come up with a POD to change that however I dont see how Hungary being ortodox would make it more likely.
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Is it possible that this TL would have led to a better Hungarian-Romanian relationship in the present day? For example more Hungarian and Romanian soldiers would have joined arms against the Ottoman occupation, more Hungarian nobles would have been sympathetic to Romanians, and Romanian folk heroes such as Horea and Avram Iancu would have a better reputation among Hungarians?
Among OTL Hungarian Nationalists, Horea is simply called a "robber", and Avram Iancu is remembered as a person who "beat up Hungarians." This TL might have changed that and led to a more positive recognition.
Among OTL Hungarian Nationalists, Horea is simply called a "robber", and Avram Iancu is remembered as a person who "beat up Hungarians." This TL might have changed that and led to a more positive recognition.
The butterflies here would be so utterly massive that none of these historical events would happen.
Yeah, you could see anything from a German conquest of Pannonia to a gigantic Hungarian Empire proclaiming itself the Third Rome and conquering Constantinople.
Either of those would make excellent timelines. As would Orthodox Poland as an extension.
Marc
Donor
I would it's fairly clear that an Orthodox Hungary would be an important part of the Byzantine Commonwealth - to borrow Sir Dimitri Obolensky's great term for the region within Byzantine influence, primarily cultural. And that shifts Balkan history off into a number of possible directions and constructions.
Also, and not completely trivial, it does increase the chance that Galacia also stays in the Orthodox sphere; with impacts on Poland, and Austria.
Also, and not completely trivial, it does increase the chance that Galacia also stays in the Orthodox sphere; with impacts on Poland, and Austria.
Actually Hungary already was in Byzantine orbit till the early 13th century. As my professor said it: Hungary went from being a periphery of the Byzantine - Kiev dominated east to be a periphery of the west. There has been hungarian rulers who get their throne thanks to Byzantine support. Bela III grew up in Byzantium and even was heir to the imperial thore for a while. Hungary being orthodox would make this ties even stronger why weakening the ties to the west.
Marc
Donor
Yes, although in most matters outside of a few political and liturgical moments, very much on the periphery - if my recollection isn't too fuzzy. A sustained conversion would have vast prospective changes... I could have fun visualizing a Balkan history where Hungary being able to do what the Bulgarians and Serbs dreamed of in terms of taking over Byzantium. Which of course, changes everything.
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raharris1973
Gone Fishin'
Were the Slovaks already committed to Catholicism at this time? If not, might Orthodoxy have a pretty good chance with them too?