WI: Magyars convert to Orthodoxy

The Magyars under Almos and his son Alpad moved into the Pannonian basin against the Bulgars and Avars as pressure from other nomads forced them to move west. They managed to conquer the region from Bulgaria, but didn't manage to completely crush them as they initially hoped, instead settling down in their Pannonian provinces and expanding west to fill the rest of the basin, forming the foundations of the modern nation of Hungary. The Bulgars, though not conquered, were weakened enough for the Byzantines to deal with more effectively.

For a few generations, the new Hungarians continued to follow the shamanistic practises of their nomad predecessors under their grand Chiefs, with some sympathy and support from the Orthodox Byzantines, to whom they resisted. However, Chief Geza welcomed in Catholic missionaries from the west, leading to his son Stephen I converting to Catholicism and forming Hungary, more than a century after the Magyars had migrated into the region, while those that remained east were subsumed by Slavs and Tartars in the modern Ukraine.

My question is what do people think would have happened if Geza or an earlier ruler (perhaps even Alpad or Almos himself) had instead looked south and converted to Orthodox Christianity? He would be hoping to reduce antagonism with the Byzantines and southern Slavs whom the Magyars competed with and may allow more secure southern borders.

What would the long term implications of this be?
 
What would the long term implications of this be?

I'd be happier. :)

Even though I'm an Atheist, I love Orthodox Christian liturgies from an artistic and traditional aspect. Being able to attend one near my home would be a great experience. ;)


More seriously, I think Hungary would have become much more strongly an Eastern European country, absorbing more of the tradition and worldview of Eastern and Southern Slavs and the Greeks, than in OTL, while potentially having the chance to retain more of their Pagan culture, as the Eastern Christian world back then was generally more disorganized and had less power to enforce a central authority in all walks of life. During the High Middle Ages Hungary would have been allied with the Kievan Rus' and the Byzantine Empire, instead of the Holy Roman Empire and Italy. This would have led to some cultural, and social differences, but it is pretty hard to predict what an Early Modern Period Hungary in this TL would have been like.
 
You need a Magyar victory at Lechfeld, or at least a not-so-crushing defeat, that pretty much put Hungary under East Francian (Catholic)'s sphere.
 

TruthfulPanda

Gone Fishin'
I remember reading that for some time Hungary sat on the fence before sliding into the Latin camp.
As to long term effects - until the HRE imploded I'd expect a period stronger pressure from the West.
If Hungary survived as an independent state in more or less OTL borders, I'd expect assimilation of the Romanians in Erdely and of ciscarpathian Ruthenians. Here there would be no Orthodox (later Uniate) Church protecting their distinctivness but would be an instrument if Magyarisation.
I don' think that the Magyar alphabet survives a day longer than in OTL. However, Magyar becomes a written language in the Xth century. And gets loanwords - or translations - from Greek. E.g. king might not be "kiraly" but a variation on "vasileos".
As mentioned, less interaction with the West but (even) more with the Balkans and Ruthenia.
If Ottoman conquest happens as per OTL, then I see Orthodox Hungarian nobility being replaced with Catholic German speakers. Hungarian becomes the language of peasants until a revival in the XIXth century.
Worse, there might be no Kingdom of Hungary from Mohacs onwards - would the Habsburgs retain a polity of the schismatics? Would there had been an arrangement between the two dynasties? Or would the Habsburgs simply gobble up what the Turks did not? Resurrection of a Hungarian polity might be much more difficult than in OTL.
An Orthodox Hungary also has major impact on Polish history.
 

TruthfulPanda

Gone Fishin'
1 - the dynamics of the whole - Polish/Hungarian/Bohemian/HRE quadrangle change;
2 - there is no Louis the Great of Hungary to succeed Kazimierz III;
3 - less intermarriage
4 - a biggy - Hungary going "Orthodox" (a misnomer pre 1054, I know) and earlier than in OTL might had led Poland to do same.
There are theories that southern Poland - subjugated by Great Moravia before it was destroyed by the Hungarians - was starting to christianise according to the Eastern Rite. Ciril - he of Cirilic alphabet fame - and Methody were the missionaries who cristianised Great Moravia. A Hungary which takes up Christianity c.900 would continue to export it beyond the Carpathians into Poland? Maybe the Wiślanie (Cracow area) tribe does not revert to paganism? Maybe the Hungarians prop them up against the Polanie (Poznań area) who formed Poland around themselves.
Mieszko married a Czech duke's daughter and took Christianity from there. The alternative was accepting Christianity from Saxony and subjugation to the HRE. With Hungary Christian Mieszko could look for missionaries there. Especially that he would not end up with a German bishop and archbishop to bring him into line if other methods failed. A Church working hand in hand with the German King versus a Church whose head was in far, far away Constantinople? If Mieszko could get away with accepting the Eastern Rite - i.e. not being invaded too much by Saxon border lords - he'd take that chance. There would be howls of protest from the German Civil&Ecclesiastic Complex and appeals to Rome - read up on how Circil and Methody fared in their conversion of Great Moravia - but, with enough swords - Mieszko might had succeeded in becoming subordinate to Buda (Constantinople) and not Magdeburg (Rome).
 
1 - the dynamics of the whole - Polish/Hungarian/Bohemian/HRE quadrangle change;
2 - there is no Louis the Great of Hungary to succeed Kazimierz III;
3 - less intermarriage
4 - a biggy - Hungary going "Orthodox" (a misnomer pre 1054, I know) and earlier than in OTL might had led Poland to do same.
There are theories that southern Poland - subjugated by Great Moravia before it was destroyed by the Hungarians - was starting to christianise according to the Eastern Rite. Ciril - he of Cirilic alphabet fame - and Methody were the missionaries who cristianised Great Moravia. A Hungary which takes up Christianity c.900 would continue to export it beyond the Carpathians into Poland? Maybe the Wiślanie (Cracow area) tribe does not revert to paganism? Maybe the Hungarians prop them up against the Polanie (Poznań area) who formed Poland around themselves.
Mieszko married a Czech duke's daughter and took Christianity from there. The alternative was accepting Christianity from Saxony and subjugation to the HRE. With Hungary Christian Mieszko could look for missionaries there. Especially that he would not end up with a German bishop and archbishop to bring him into line if other methods failed. A Church working hand in hand with the German King versus a Church whose head was in far, far away Constantinople? If Mieszko could get away with accepting the Eastern Rite - i.e. not being invaded too much by Saxon border lords - he'd take that chance. There would be howls of protest from the German Civil&Ecclesiastic Complex and appeals to Rome - read up on how Circil and Methody fared in their conversion of Great Moravia - but, with enough swords - Mieszko might had succeeded in becoming subordinate to Buda (Constantinople) and not Magdeburg (Rome).
Could we end up seeing Poland divided between orthodox Little Poland (centered around Cracow), and catholic Greater Poland (centered around Posen, and allied to the Germans)?
 

TruthfulPanda

Gone Fishin'
Could we end up seeing Poland divided between orthodox Little Poland (centered around Cracow), and catholic Greater Poland (centered around Posen, and allied to the Germans)?
I think that there is such a possibility.
An Eastern Church Hungary also reflects on the situation in Czechia. Which in turn affect events in "Poland".
If the Czechs hold off the German Church than things in Poland also may run differently than in OTL.
 
Other than this snowballing into more Central European Orthodox counties, there are two big effects, both of which would produce more dynasties.

First, alot of Hungarian and European dynastic history would be changed. Hungary itself wound up under a French dynasty, which intermarried extensively with dynasties in Poland, Bohemia, and Naples. This would be harder with Orthodox Hungary. There would be less likely to be a Hapsburg connection.

Second, assuming the Turkish conquest of Hungary is butterflied away, what happens when the Turks are expelled becomes problematic. There may be no Hapsburg dynastic claim to Hungary like IOTL. The disposition of Hungary would be different, with outcomes ranging from independence to something similar to how the English treated Ireland and the Hapsburgs themselves treated Bohemia after 1600.
 

TruthfulPanda

Gone Fishin'
As to intermarriage - Polish and Ruthenian duchies routinely intermarried in the XIIIth century. One duke even had a pagan Lithuanian bride, introducing the exotic dynastic name "Trojden" (Troyden to Enlgish speakers) to the list of Dukes of Warsaw.
 
Germans instead of crusading in Holy Land will be invading periodically their schizmatic neighbors. I give them two hundred years before Magyars are gone and replaced with German settlers.
 

TruthfulPanda

Gone Fishin'
Germans besides crusading in Holy Land will be constantly invading their schizmatic neighbors. I give them two hundred years before Magyars are gone and replaced with German settlers.
FIFY
A good point.
And another butterfly.
Would this weaken the "crusades" against the Obodrzyce and Wieleci (Obodrites and Welite Union)?
Less support for Teutonic Knights in Prussia and Sword Knights in Latvia/Estonia?
Would there be Teutonic Knights in Prussia at all? Maybe they get settled on Austrian- Hungarian border and try to carve out a state there?
 
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FIFY
A good point.
And another butterfly.
Would this weaken the "crusades" against the Obodrzyce and Wielici (Obodrites and Welite Union)?
Less support for Teutonic Knights in Prussia and Sword Knights in Latvia/Estonia?
Would there be Teutonic Knights in Prussia at all? Maybe they get settled on Austrian- Hungarian border and try to carve out a state there?
OTL the Teutonic Order was invited by the Hungarian King to defend Transylvania against the pagan Kipchaks before being kicked out a decade later.
TTL, assuming they still exist, would they even be invited?
It's possible they go straight to Prussia.
 

TruthfulPanda

Gone Fishin'
OTL the Teutonic Order was invited by the Hungarian King to defend Transylvania against the pagan Kipchaks before being kicked out a decade later.
TTL, assuming they still exist, would they even be invited?
It's possible they go straight to Prussia.
An invitation to the Mazowsze-Prussian border off the bat is possible, I don't know what that the situation in Mazavia in 2017 had been. If no invitation in 2017, then maybe they fade to obscurity? Konrad never hears about them?
But I was suggesting that they get invited to the borderlands between Lower Austria, Steyermark or Karnten on one side, and Hungary on the other.
I do not think that an Orthodox Hungarian King - if there still is a Hungary at this point - would invite them to anything besides cleaning his privy.
 
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An invitation to the Mazowsze-Prussian border off the bat is possible, I don't know what that the situation in Mazavia in 2017 had been. If no invitation in 2017, then maybe they fade to obscurity? Konrad never hears about them?
But I was suggesting that they get invited to the borderlands between Lower Austria, Steyermark or Karnten on one side, and Hungary on the other.
I do not think that an Orthodox Hungarian King - if there still is a Hungary at this point - would invite them to anything besides cleaning his privy.
1207?
The Order would be best used against pagans rather than fellow Christians at this time. After all they weren't being used in Latin Rhomania against the Bulgarians which would make sense there.
 
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