WI: Joseph Johnston takes command of AoT in 1863

[Gentleman Johnny]

An interesting proposition is that Johnston suffered angst about throwing in with the Confederacy, more so than Lee apparently. One could easily see a scenario where he doesn't; with some major consequences.

I haven't heard about that before. From my understanding he made his choice for similar reasons to Lee. I can't see him making the opposite decision imo.

" I believed like most others, that the division of the country would be permanent; and that ... the revolution begun was justified by the maxims so often repeated by Americans, that Free government is founded on the consent of the governed, and that every community strong enough to establish and maintain its independence, has a right to assert it. Having been educated in such opinions, I naturally determined to return to the State of which I was a native, join the people among whom I was born, and live with my kindred, and if necessary, fight in their defense."

Doesn't sound like a man with much doubt.

 

[Marc]

I haven't heard about that before. From my understanding he made his choice for similar reasons to Lee. I can't see him making the opposite decision imo.

" I believed like most others, that the division of the country would be permanent; and that ... the revolution begun was justified by the maxims so often repeated by Americans, that Free government is founded on the consent of the governed, and that every community strong enough to establish and maintain its independence, has a right to assert it. Having been educated in such opinions, I naturally determined to return to the State of which I was a native, join the people among whom I was born, and live with my kindred, and if necessary, fight in their defense."

Doesn't sound like a man with much doubt.

That is the most quoted. However, he was clear about his opposition to slavery. I can't recall, unlike Lee, that Johnston ever owned any; which alone would have made atypical (and possibly looked askance by some of the ruling elite - "Can't trust a man who doesn't own a passel of slaves" anon. Georgia senator.). He had strong ties to the regular Army obviously, and apparently was far from enthusiastic about secession. He could have followed Thomas as a Southern Unionist - which considering how thin and contrived some supposings are, is not implausible, and could have resulted in a quicker and less messy ending to the Rebellion.

 

[Gentleman Johnny]

That is the most quoted. However, he was clear about his opposition to slavery. I can't recall, unlike Lee, that Johnston ever owned any; which alone would have made atypical (and possibly looked askance by some of the ruling elite - "Can't trust a man who doesn't own a passel of slaves" anon. Georgia senator.). He had strong ties to the regular Army obviously, and apparently was far from enthusiastic about secession. He could have followed Thomas as a Southern Unionist - which considering how thin and contrived some supposings are, is not implausible, and could have resulted in a quicker and less messy ending to the Rebellion.

I also believe that he never owned any slaves. And yes, he did have strong military ties. Yet, I still believe that he had little trouble sliding with the South. I'm sure, like Lee, he wasn't super enthusiastic about it, but Virginia was his country and he saw it holding his ultimate loyalty.

 

[Avrorrange]

There were 14,000,065 alternative decisions the CSA leadership could have made during the Civil War, only one of which would have enabled them to win.

The only winning move is not to fight at all.

 

[Gentleman Johnny]

The only winning move is not to fight at all.

Please, let's not start that age old debate here. It's not what the thread is about.

 

[Avrorrange]

Please, let's not start that age old debate here. It's not what the thread is about.

Was under the impression that this is more or less what the guy was implying when he said that there’s only one winning move for the Confederacy,but without specifying what it was.That’s why I made a guess and said it.

 

[Gentleman Johnny]

Was under the impression that this is more or less what the guy was implying when he said that there’s only one winning move for the Confederacy,that’s why I said it.

Fair enough

 

[Old1812]

I really need to do more reading on the Tullahoma Campaign, but the first question seems to be: would Johnston make the same mistakes as Bragg at Hoover's Gap and Liberty Gap? Considering his glaring mistake at Snake Creek Gap IOTL, I'm not sure, but he may not. Johnston could hold Rosecrans up for weeks at Hoover's Gap, or withdraw and mount a counterattack later. Rosecrans' audacious plan called for splitting his army as they made their complex maneuvers, if Johnston can fall on a part and maul that, it could severely stall the Union advance on Chattanooga. If Grant is forced to send men to help Rosecrans, so much the better for Pemberton at Vicksburg.

You might have Bragg become commander of the "Army of Relief" in Mississippi instead of Johnston. Bragg could be an aggressive commander, and you might see him try to attack Grant around Vicksburg.

 

[Gentleman Johnny]

I really need to do more reading on the Tullahoma Campaign, but the first question seems to be: would Johnston make the same mistakes as Bragg at Hoover's Gap and Liberty Gap? Considering his glaring mistake at Snake Creek Gap IOTL, I'm not sure, but he may not. Johnston could hold Rosecrans up for weeks at Hoover's Gap, or withdraw and mount a counterattack later. Rosecrans' audacious plan called for splitting his army as they made their complex maneuvers, if Johnston can fall on a part and maul that, it could severely stall the Union advance on Chattanooga. If Grant is forced to send men to help Rosecrans, so much the better for Pemberton at Vicksburg.

You might have Bragg become commander of the "Army of Relief" in Mississippi instead of Johnston. Bragg could be an aggressive commander, and you might see him try to attack Grant around Vicksburg.

Very interesting. Thanks for the insight. I was quite surprised to see someone respond to this thread since it's almost a month old. But I appreciate it! This is essentially my take on things as well. This situation could create quite an interesting scenario for 1864, especially if the fall of Vicksburg is pushed back. Thanks again!

 

[Arnold d.c]

I really need to do more reading on the Tullahoma Campaign, but the first question seems to be: would Johnston make the same mistakes as Bragg at Hoover's Gap and Liberty Gap? Considering his glaring mistake at Snake Creek Gap IOTL, I'm not sure, but he may not. Johnston could hold Rosecrans up for weeks at Hoover's Gap, or withdraw and mount a counterattack later. Rosecrans' audacious plan called for splitting his army as they made their complex maneuvers, if Johnston can fall on a part and maul that, it could severely stall the Union advance on Chattanooga. If Grant is forced to send men to help Rosecrans, so much the better for Pemberton at Vicksburg.

From my reading of the Tullahoma Campaign, Bragg could not afford to defend everything as his force would be widely dispersed and difficult to concentrate against the main thrust. Liberty Gap was defended by a brigade led by Brig. Gen. St. John Liddell which was pushed out by the XX Corps in a single day. The XX Corps was meant to snatch Bragg's attention and did so well. Hoover's Gap was even less defended; Bragg had intended his right flank to be protected by Wheeler and Morgan, but Morgan ended up in a Federal prison with his entire division destroyed in an idiotic raid and Wheeler had stripped out most of his cavalry to “dash around Rosecrans’ rear, capture his [Rosecrans’] trains, and make a diversion.” As a result Hoover's Gap was by a brigade of Wharton's Cavalry Division with promised support from A.P. Stewart. Ultimately, the Confederate cavalrymen were routed from their positions by Wilder's 'Tadpole Cavalry' and A.P. Stewart was alerted too late to reinforce them in time. The XXI Corps' march was only possible due to the destruction of Morgan's cavalrymen.

The plan you described was word-for-word the same one planned by Bragg; Bragg thought Rosecrans would be reluctant to attack Polk head-on and, rightfully, believed Rosecrans' would strike the gaps. He hoped for Polk to advance aggressively and maul a portion of Rosecran's army. However, bad intelligence gave Bragg the impression that the reverse was true and thus prepared wrongly. When Bragg realized he had been had, he tried to get Polk moving forward, but Polk remained insubordinate and refused to go.

I profess to be no expert of Joe Johnston's command style or use of cavalry, but I still think it probable that Johnston cannot reverse the situation. Confederate cavalry was frankly ill-disciplined and fairly bad at their jobs of intelligence gathering; Wheeler was incompetent and insubordinate, often following his own beliefs and failing to report to army command. The best example I know of is Wheeler's failure to tell Johnston and later Hood that McPherson and Schofield were marching to Atlanta until McPherson was just 2 1/2 miles from the city. Johnston might not approve of Morgan's raid, but Morgan was also fairly insubordinate, notably taking far more than the authorized amount of cavalrymen on the raid.

As for your last point, the Tullahoma Campaign happened just as the Vicksburg campaign was coming to a close. There would be no chance of a recall of Grant's forces. Additionally, an attack by the Army of Relief is frankly suicidal. Grant had actually prepared extensive defenses for a potential Confederate approach from the Mechanicsburg corridor from the other flank, which was the most practicable approach for the Army of Relief. Bragg's only other option would be to assault the few approaches which Grant ensured had been fortified and manned. Grant even noted that if Johnston had been foolish enough to attack, he would have rejoiced. To demonstrate what Grant could do: in response to a false alarm of an attempt by Johnston to advance, Grant was immediately able to concentrate 34,000 men under Sherman in strong defensive positions along his lines along the probable approach, and he left that force in place.

 

[Greg Grant]

Joseph Johnston would have still had an ugly hand, cards wise, against the Union forces, but I cannot see how replacing Bragg with him would not have been an improvement for the Confederates.

Even in the laxer era of military command etiquette of the 1860s and ACW, it takes a lot for your subordinates, who are fellow generals with military and war experience, to want to turf you so bad they are willing to put their names to it in writing and appeal to someone they know will not likely take their side. Bragg was a horror-show. Usually when a general has the interpersonal skills of a grumble-lord, he is forgiven if he wins (see: Belichick, New England Patriots for the civilian variant), but if he's not winning, all the little things you force yourself to overlook with a sigh come roaring out with a vengeance.

The relationship Bragg had with his direct reports was poisoned, which meant his orders would be disobeyed where they could be disobeyed, because that's pure human nature and politics. I'm not saying his generals and staff were throwing the war, but I'm saying if you piss off your direct reports, they will irk you back any chance they can get. These are men with considerable pride and Bragg rubbed them the wrong way. It is also cannot be good for morale of any officer or soldier in the army to know there is chaos at the top. Here you are, giving it your all and fighting "the good fight" (from the Confederate view), and the a-holes above you are sniffing and acting offended at one another. Johnston was not just a good general, he was perceived to be a good general, which matters as much if not more than any actual skillsset.

Also, it is worth noting Joseph Johnston had, at the time, a great relationship with noted blowhard and apt-to-go-rogue PGT Beauregard (their troubles started after the War) when PGT was under his command and gave him remarkable leeway once he was sure of PGT's skills and/or thought PGT had a better plan and ideas. To go from a Bragg horror-show to a players' coach such as Johnston (to complete my football analogy) would have had to have reinvigorated the Army of Tennessee.

I don't know how much better (from CSA perspective) Johnston does, but once again, he would not have done worse in my view than OTL Bragg.

 

[Gentleman Johnny]

Joseph Johnston would have still had an ugly hand, cards wise, against the Union forces, but I cannot see how replacing Bragg with him would not have been an improvement for the Confederates.

Even in the laxer era of military command etiquette of the 1860s and ACW, it takes a lot for your subordinates, who are fellow generals with military and war experience, to want to turf you so bad they are willing to put their names to it in writing and appeal to someone they know will not likely take their side. Bragg was a horror-show. Usually when a general has the interpersonal skills of a grumble-lord, he is forgiven if he wins (see: Belichick, New England Patriots for the civilian variant), but if he's not winning, all the little things you force yourself to overlook with a sigh come roaring out with a vengeance.

The relationship Bragg had with his direct reports was poisoned, which meant his orders would be disobeyed where they could be disobeyed, because that's pure human nature and politics. I'm not saying his generals and staff were throwing the war, but I'm saying if you piss off your direct reports, they will irk you back any chance they can get. These are men with considerable pride and Bragg rubbed them the wrong way. It is also cannot be good for morale of any officer or soldier in the army to know there is chaos at the top. Here you are, giving it your all and fighting "the good fight" (from the Confederate view), and the a-holes above you are sniffing and acting offended at one another. Johnston was not just a good general, he was perceived to be a good general, which matters as much if not more than any actual skillsset.

Also, it is worth noting Joseph Johnston had, at the time, a great relationship with noted blowhard and apt-to-go-rogue PGT Beauregard (their troubles started after the War) when PGT was under his command and gave him remarkable leeway once he was sure of PGT's skills and/or thought PGT had a better plan and ideas. To go from a Bragg horror-show to a players' coach such as Johnston (to complete my football analogy) would have had to have reinvigorated the Army of Tennessee.

I don't know how much better (from CSA perspective) Johnston does, but once again, he would not have done worse in my view than OTL Bragg.

Very nice, I appreciate your input greatly. Personally I agree with you as well. Simple the morale factor of getting rid of Bragg would have been huge for the AoT. And, as you said, Joseph Johnston was seen as a great general. I remember reading somewhere that during the war some people withing the Confederacy even debated who was the better general between Johnston and Lee. Anyway, thanks again for your input.