WI Japan demanded a stand-down or demobilization of the Chinese Communists and Viet Minh as part of Japan-Soviet Neutrality Treaty?

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
As winter turned to spring in 1941, Japan and the Soviet Union found a neutrality treaty to be increasingly in their interests. The Japanese were under partial economic sanctions of scrap iron, and a moral embargo of aviation-grade fuel ever since their September 1940 occupation of northern French Indochina and signing of the Tripartite Pact with Germany and Italy.

The Soviets had long wanted a nonaggression or neutrality pact with Japan, and as Hitler's grip over the the continent, especially the Balkans, and fears of war, increased, this became more urgent.

In OTL this deal was made in April 1941. It was followed by a final termination of remaining Soviet aid to Nationalist China some months later, and the withdrawal of the last Soviet advisory personnel from China some months after that [which was actually several months after the Nazi invasion]. I'm not certain if Soviet disengagement from China was an implied or secret aspect of the Japanese neutrality pact, or simply a result of Soviet reprioritization on Europe.

In the ATL, the Japanese side is determined to get more out of striking a deal with the Soviets. It wants to use the neutrality pact to end Soviet aid to the Chinese Nationalists, but also to end harassment of Japanese occupying forces in China and northern Indochina by the Chinese Communists and Vietnamese Communist-led Viet Minh, respectively.

The Soviets can protest a lack of control over Chinese or Vietnamese Communists, but the Japanese, no less than later Americans, can govern themselves by a perspective of communism as monolithic.

Can the Japanese secure Soviet agreement as part of a neutrality deal that the Viet Minh will disarm, and not disturb Japanese occupation activities in Indochina, in return for protection from prosecution or arrest by Japanese or Vichy French authorities there?

Could the Japanese secure Soviet agreement as part of the neutrality deal to retreat Communist forces behind Japanese lines out west to the Yanan base? Or alternatively have a cease-fire between the Communist and Japanese forces that allows Japanese forces free movement through all Communist base areas, including Yanan, to attack Nationalist forces?

If the Japanese make one or more of these conditions a deal-breaker, do the Soviets walk? In June when the Nazis invade, do the Soviets come back around to the Japanese position because Japanese neutrality is all the more urgent?

If the Soviets come around to the Japanese position, do the CCP or Viet Minh obey Moscow's orders? Do they openly split with Moscow while claiming Marxist-Leninist fidelity? Or do they reinvent themselves ideologically while splitting with Moscow?

If the Soviets never come around to the Japanese position, and there is no *formal* Soviet-Japanese neutrality treaty, does this fact make it more likely for Japan to choose to strike north in '41 or '42? Or for the Soviets to make a preemptive move against the Japanese? Or for the Soviets and Japanese to somehow end up at war with each other earlier than August 1945?
 
Stalin was supporting Chiang against Mao and the Chinese Communist party. The CCP did not take orders from the USSR and that was one reason that Stalin wanted Mao gone. He would not be able to tell Japan that they would obey him. The US knew this pre, during and post war about the split between the CCP and Moscow and understood that Mao was running his own brand of communism.
 
Stalin was supporting Chiang against Mao and the Chinese Communist party. The CCP did not take orders from the USSR and that was one reason that Stalin wanted Mao gone. He would not be able to tell Japan that they would obey him. The US knew this pre, during and post war about the split between the CCP and Moscow and understood that Mao was running his own brand of communism.
Not to rebuke you but source?
 
The Soviets were supporting Mao. The problem was Mao was putting Chinese Communism ahead or Russia or the world spread of Communism. If Stalin would have been successfully able to eliminate him then it might have been different. Mao was originally was supported by Trotsky and other people before Stalin purged them from the party and then looked at Chiang as a way to be a proxy against Japan and Mao both at the same time.


We actually had a mission with Mao during the war to help with our interests in the areas they controlled and treated him at times seperate from Chiang on some matters. Lemay worked with them to have weather stations run by them to help the B29's raids on Japan.

 
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raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
Stalin was supporting Chiang against Mao and the Chinese Communist party.

I disagree. In the late 1930s and into the early 1940s Stalin was supporting both. And this wasn't a zero-sum choice. He was helping all Chinese factions fighting Japan.
The CCP did not take orders from the USSR and that was one reason that Stalin wanted Mao gone.

See some of @David T 's posts on this subject and extensive quotes from Michael Sheng. https://www.amazon.com/Battling-Wes...&keywords=michael+sheng&qid=1606887516&sr=8-2.

Stalin didn't quite give orders. But Mao checked in with Stalin alot by radio and almost always came around to taking Stalin's advice.

Wait, if the Soviets supported Chiang, then who was supporting Mao all this time?
As I remarked above, it wasn't always a zero-sum choice. Some funds actually came in from the USSR to the Chinese Nationalists during the late 30s, and per their agreement, a percentage went for the upkeep of Communist forces. That's at least the way it's described in one of the Mao biographies.
 
Why would the Japanese bother Stalin about the CCP? "From 1937 to 1945, there were 23 battles where both sides employed at least a regiment each. The CCP was not a main force in any of these. The only time it participated, it sent a mere 1,000 to 1,500 men, and then only as a security detachment on one of the flanks.There were 1,117 significant engagements on a scale smaller than a regular battle, but the CCP fought in only one. Of the approximately 40,000 skirmishes, just 200 were fought by the CCP, or 0.5 percent.” The CCP Didn’t Fight Imperial Japan; the KMT Did – The Diplomat
 
Why would the Japanese bother Stalin about the CCP? "From 1937 to 1945, there were 23 battles where both sides employed at least a regiment each. The CCP was not a main force in any of these. The only time it participated, it sent a mere 1,000 to 1,500 men, and then only as a security detachment on one of the flanks.There were 1,117 significant engagements on a scale smaller than a regular battle, but the CCP fought in only one. Of the approximately 40,000 skirmishes, just 200 were fought by the CCP, or 0.5 percent.” The CCP Didn’t Fight Imperial Japan; the KMT Did – The Diplomat
The CCP cooperated more with the US than with the Soviets or the KMT during the war time. The US actually had a seperate mission with Mao and his people that worked really well together.
 
The Soviets always denied they had anything to do with foreign Communist Parties, so there could be no formal mention of the CCP in any treaty with Japan. ("The Comintern? That's a separate organization--nothing to do with the Soviet government!")
 
Stalin couldn't make such a deal, because he didn't control those forces. In April 1941 Japan needed the none aggression pact more then the Soviets did. They wouldn't insist on conditions they knew they couldn't get. Invading Russia wasn't a real option, after what happened in 1938-39. If they did attack the Soviet Far East the United States would've imposed an oil embargo. Then Japan would've been really screwed, because they couldn't strike North & South at the same time.
 

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
I guess you'd need a Molotov-Ribbentrop like NAP/Alliance. Considering how many times the Soviet's tried to get something like that the change will have to come from the Japanese side

A lot is two words

Well that sort of is the comparison. European communist parties during the M-R Pact seemed to take pains to take an anti-war, revolutionary defeatist position that was de facto anti-Allied, pro-Axis. I was looking for the Japanese to try to get the same deal.
 
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