WI: How far Justinian's campaign would go if Lazic War and Plague of Justinian doesn't happen?

How far it would go?

  • Same as OTL

    Votes: 7 12.7%
  • Visigoths conquered (includes Provence and Mauritania)

    Votes: 28 50.9%
  • Into the Suevis (Suevis are conquered)

    Votes: 6 10.9%
  • Into Gaul (Franks partially conquered)

    Votes: 11 20.0%
  • Franks fully conquered (without Saxony and Dacia)

    Votes: 1 1.8%
  • Into my personal view (all from the events)

    Votes: 2 3.6%

  • Total voters
    55
Assuming that the Lazica under Persian protection isn't as oppressive as normally IRL, and Persians doesn't react when Justinian had been advancing very far against Ostrogoths, how far Justinian's campaigns would go?

MY PERSONAL OPINION...

Gothic War would end very early in Ostrogoths' front (and more territories got from it because it would probably include Pannonian areas), then Gothic War would go even further into crushing Visigoths (OH YEAH!) later on. It's probable that Mauritania would been annexed back into Romans to help creating more space for a southern front against Visigoths and very likely would attack Chlothar's domains in Provence region so to help create a land front via northeast areas of Visigothic Kingdom. Then for surely Franks would try to intervene in Visigoths who will cause a big trouble (only if Plague of Justinian happens) in the campaigns. Since Plague of Justinian doesn't exist in this time the problem would be not as major as PoJ happens. Then after all of that (Visigoths crushed, Franks weakened), Suevi Kingdom would be conquered easily and Basques are subdued then Gaul campaign will happen. Gaul campaign i'm expecting it'll be a massive campaign though in the end (about late 550's) all of the enemies (FRANKS) will be defeated. Byzantine Empire is pretty much weakened at this point since they waste many resources during this campaign. (with PoJ, it wouldn't reach Gaul at this point. Visigoths would be conquered but not the Franks. with Sassanid Empire attack it would have been the same.) Lombards would raid Pannonia many times during the war but i'll expect they will be always subdued, until they reach Feoderati status later on in the campaign. A slight extension of the Gaul Campaign, Liberius may help Justinian to get Brittany into the Byzantine Empire. Oh and at the time in the earliest times of Gaul Campaign there is also a campaign against Gepids and regain Dacia as a province. Byzantines ally & feoderatize Lombards and attack the western areas of Gepid territory. Byzantines it self would attack Gepids in eastern areas (same areas Trajan used to occupy). It was successful and Dacia is directly annexed by Byzantines though won't last long as Avars would occupy it later. After the Gaul Campaign (after Brittany is conquered), some tried to pressure Justinian to do further campaigns, and to appease them Justinian targets Saxony (and Frisia) for conquest while feoderatize remaining Germanic kingdoms in Inland Europe (Thuringia and Bavaria). Successful, Justinian declares the end of these campaigns and began to focus on rebuilding of the Byzantine Empire who is highly weakened by wars right now, appearing in somewhat closer in anarchy. There are plans to start conquest of Britain but due to the weakening of the empire (the extent is probably similar to OTL Byzantine Empire but with different causes instead) it seems impossible right now. Finally, sometime after (probably months) Justinian dies and Justin, son of Vigilantia takes the throne. He would try to invade Britain some years after he takes the throne but it fails horribly, also wars against Avars go badly too, causing him to lose his mind. Persians finally break it's very long truce and declared war against Byzantines with stronger than normally it do, and conquered Germanic peoples like Franks, Saxons, Frisians, etc. rebel in Gaul, also Plague of Justin II happens also and all of these caused Justin II to commit suicide because of... well, EXTREME INSANITY. I'll end my events now.

With a major POD that Sassanids didn't break truce and Plague of Justinian doesn't occur, Justinian would actually realize his ambitions to restore Roman Empire... for least. And such Justinian would have been seen as restorer of Roman Empire in this ATL to the further extent.

That's my opinion for now. Probably my view would be fully wrong, so i would like to see corrections from it, from your answers in this question. Anyway, thanks!
 
I don't think the Empire would be able to conquer more than a decent portion of Iberia during Justinian's lifetime. A more econmically productive Italy could facilitate further reconquests though. Infact a less dragged out Gothic War and no Lazic War could easily butterfly the Arab Conquests completely.
 

Faeelin

Banned
It could butterfly them sure, but there's a long time between Justian Mohammed. How much of s drain could a war decades before have been?
 

Faeelin

Banned
It could butterfly them sure, but there's a long time between Justinian and Mohammed. How much of a drain could a war decades before have been?
 
It could butterfly them sure, but there's a long time between Justinian and Mohammed. How much of a drain could a war decades before have been?
Quite a big drain actually. The Gothic War absolutely destroyed Italy's infrastructure, destroyed it's old elite, depopulated a bunch of cities and made it much less economically viable. On top of that the Empire was so broke by the end of the Gothic War they couldn't afford to stop the Lombards from taking over Italy almost right after the war ended. If the Empire gets to hold onto a strong, economically viable and urbanized Italy they would have a much better economy aswell as much more manpower to use which would give them a better chance at beating the Arabs, or Persians.
 

B-29_Bomber

Banned
Yeah, I always thought it was kind of foolish of Justinian to poke the Persian bear. If you could avoid that then Justinian would be able to bring the Gothic Wars to a close during the 540s.

With that the reconquest of Hispania could be real possibility by the middle of the 7th century.

However, you can't avoid Justinian's Plague without having to place this in ASB. However, even with the Plague the Empire will be in an even better position to deal with the Arabs in the future, if they even happen.
 
The problem with the more Roman conquering (even without plague and even with benign Persians, sincerely sympathizing with Roman rising territorial ambitions) is the more you conquer the more generals with armies dream of taking the imperial throne when chance appears, obviously preferably after Justinian death.

With extensive imperial borders there are more enemies trying to take their chance and if not conquer than plunder the Roman Empire. If the intruders successful - the Empire is weakened and endangered. If the intruders are defeated by the Roman general - this general has more grounds for his imperial aspirations.

To keep this huge Empire you need another extraordinary emperor like Justinian sitting in Constantinople and maintaining loyalty of the troops and generals far away, but such charismatic Roman emperors are borne once in a thousand years. Or you need another Roman Emperor like Aurelian personally fighting all his wars and preferably winning, which is also a rare case.
 
How did Justinian "poke" the Persian Bear?
Justinian poked it by intervening in Gubazes' rebellion (Gubazes requested it) by sending him 7000 Roman soliders and 1000 Tzanis.

Oh and based on your "I'm really getting the impression you're a bigot against German people." i can pretty much very biased because i don't have much knowledge about them and don't know much about their history. Of course i would bias again if i try to make own stories like my planned story of much more grander Ottoman Empire with Selim I lives longer that is really biased for Ottoman Empire in the earlier parts but biased against it later parts. (I plan to request this blueprint story to some people and correct it later on AND make it into TL.)
 
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