WI gunpowder was developed in Old Dynasty Egypt?
- Thread starter Malone
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Pangur
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They did not get that far with mass use of iron which they would need for guns however they could have made explosive devices to lob over walls in a seige
There was no mass iron in Old Kingdom Egypt, Egypt in terms of military equipment was conservative even in the Bronze Age. It took well into the New Kingdom before bronze became common among most soldiers. It took the interregnum between the Old and Middle kingdom for there to even be metal arrowheads.
Hmm.
Tunisia and coastal Algeria are rather rich in iron and phosphates, how about 'Carthage conquers/puppets Egypt, slowly adopts many elements of their culture and meanwhile discovers basic forms of black powder'?
Alternatively, Egypt might rebel during Carthage's war with Rome or someone else and succeed by turning the black powder weapons on their former suzerains.
Tunisia and coastal Algeria are rather rich in iron and phosphates, how about 'Carthage conquers/puppets Egypt, slowly adopts many elements of their culture and meanwhile discovers basic forms of black powder'?
Alternatively, Egypt might rebel during Carthage's war with Rome or someone else and succeed by turning the black powder weapons on their former suzerains.
To be fair, Egypt always had issues getting access to metals to arm themselves - so I think you'd need something unexpected to happen - say the long-term conquest/settlement of Cyprus.
Otherwise, Ceramic Grenades? That is about it. Wood, Copper, Iron, etc - all limited in quantity in Egypt (with the exception of wood in the delta).
But Ceramic Grenades and Wooden Cannons lobbing stone are a scary idea. Great for defensive fights, and attacking enemy fortifications, but otherwise, you still have infantry with spears, swords, and standard archers. Hand-Cannons are a no-go
Sailors ramming enemy ships and then throwing ceramic grenades? Eeeesh.
I have no idea where they'd get the resources, but the idea of Hyksos charioteers charging at Egyptian lines, only to hear the ground itself thunder as primitive wood-lined dug-mortars fire rocks into the air. Rock shards falling from the sky? Your horses don't want those in the eye.
Explain to me how they get the raw materials to make it, and how they engineer the weapons to use it, and I'd buy into that timeline.
Otherwise, Ceramic Grenades? That is about it. Wood, Copper, Iron, etc - all limited in quantity in Egypt (with the exception of wood in the delta).
But Ceramic Grenades and Wooden Cannons lobbing stone are a scary idea. Great for defensive fights, and attacking enemy fortifications, but otherwise, you still have infantry with spears, swords, and standard archers. Hand-Cannons are a no-go
Sailors ramming enemy ships and then throwing ceramic grenades? Eeeesh.
I have no idea where they'd get the resources, but the idea of Hyksos charioteers charging at Egyptian lines, only to hear the ground itself thunder as primitive wood-lined dug-mortars fire rocks into the air. Rock shards falling from the sky? Your horses don't want those in the eye.
Explain to me how they get the raw materials to make it, and how they engineer the weapons to use it, and I'd buy into that timeline.
Well, such a discovery would inevitably proliferate. It might not be Old Dynasty Egypt that makes the most effective use of it.
It took about four or five centuries from the discovery of Gunpowder in China to weaponize it effectively, and a few more centuries for technology and tactics to reach a point where it was both decisive and dominant. In that time, it proliferated slowly through a half dozen cultures.
So it's unlikely to be a major game changer for Egypt. But it might be very significant during the age of the Greeks, or during the Roman expansion. Alexander and Caesar might well be butterflied away. Or their equivalents might be doing similar sprees of conquests on steroids.
So it's unlikely to be a major game changer for Egypt. But it might be very significant during the age of the Greeks, or during the Roman expansion. Alexander and Caesar might well be butterflied away. Or their equivalents might be doing similar sprees of conquests on steroids.
Conventional military applications for the Egyptians are pretty much out of the question.
But there may be non-military applications. Egypt was a society of temples. Fireworks?
There may also be new interest and experimentation with refining and combusting chemicals, and in structures to handle volatile chemicals. You might have seen earlier distillation, perhaps earlier and more experimental alchemy.
But there may be non-military applications. Egypt was a society of temples. Fireworks?
There may also be new interest and experimentation with refining and combusting chemicals, and in structures to handle volatile chemicals. You might have seen earlier distillation, perhaps earlier and more experimental alchemy.
Why? A lot of guns were cast bronze.
Send a 15th century gunner to Old Kingdom Egypt with charge to cast a few handguns. No flintlock mechanisms - just touchholes.
Where would a 15th century or 19th century gunsmith in Egypt or elsewhere in Middle East procure saltpetre? Fairly simple, if expensive... result of decaying organics. How about sulphur, then? Remember, you're looking at a few gunsmiths looking to replicate 14th or 15th century technology. Many gunsmiths must have been in that predicament - away from a city and a wider choice of artisans and supplies there, in service of a fugitive or a rebel or a nomad chieftain, trying to get just a few working barrels, a few working shots against opponents with none at all. What did they do, and how? What would a 19th century Egyptian gunsmith have done in Africa south of Sahara, and what would he have done in Old Kingdom?
Metallurgy needs to develop in order for someone to be able to make cast bronze guns. It is a large amount of bronze that needs to be perfectly cast - no hidden cracks, bubbles or weaknesses, as those whill cause the gun to burst when ignited. Note for example the so called "LIberty bell" which was re-cast not once but twice and is still cracked due to faults in the casting process - and that is in the 1700s!
The Egyptians might develop 14th century arrow cannons, but hardly more than that.
Yes, but it does not need to be a large amount of bronze.
Consider the 14th, first half of 15th century hackbutts. With no trigger or lock mechanism - just touchhole.
The famous Tannenberg gun, lost 1399 AD, had calibre inside the barrel of 17 mm. Firing lead balls. Total length of the metal part just 320 mm, weight 1250 g. It was at the end of a wooden stick (length and weight not exactly known).
Anything a 2399 BC Egyptian smith could not reproduce, given a use for it in form of recipe for gunpowder?
If the 2399 BC bronze caster was less skilled than the 1399 AD one, he might have made the gun barrel a bit thicker to compensate, so it would weigh 1500 of 2000 g. Still perfectly usable. 50 years after Tannenberg, typical hackbutts weighed 10 kg (slightly bigger calibre, and much longer barrel). They were still useful (not meant to held in hand, but rested on a battlement).
What did 15th century Egyptian hackbutts look like?
Cannons and mortars as siege weapons came before cannons, mortars and hand-cannons as battlefield weapons. One of the reasons hand-cannons made their appearance was that armour was getting so good that bows could not reliably stop armoured troops, and that crossbows became so heavy and cumbersome to load that they more or less became siege weapons. Armour is not a factor in that way in Egypt or among its enemies and other neighbours.
The Egyptians will look to make siege weapons - cannons. And that requires the skills to cast heavy and thick bronze, which was rare even in the 18th century. Just making it ticker to compensate for any crack or bubble is seldom a viable strategy. When the US did so with cast iron mortars during the civil war (the US lacked to know-how on casting high-quality iron at this time) they were so heavy they could hardly be moved at all.
Bronze was expensive during this era.