I suspect that the Red Army wouldn’t even notice that there had been a counter-attack.
WI: Felix Steiner carried out Hitler's order and counter-attacked the Russians in Berlin?
- Thread starter peterpandude85
- Start date
Indeed. Hitler had ordered a all out attack on the Remagen bridgehead. Those on the spot reported some local actions and steady harassing fires for a week, but nothing remotely threatening the bridgehead. Peregrin commanding one of the engineer battalions installing a pontoon bridge adjacent comments on the several V2 missiles that exploded nearby. He found out about the aborted attempt by the German combat swimmers second hand, There was some artillery fire audible in the hills to the east, but that faded out. The only solders visible were the US First Army pouring east on the bridges and ferrys established.
Garrison
Donor
That sums up Nazi Germany in 1945, out of manpower and clinging to the hope that some wonderweapon could turn the tide.
For a lot of them the hope clung to was the Brits or Yanks would roll over them and end the increasing executions by the nazi organizations, the endless bombing, the severe food shortage, the lack of coal, medical supplies, clothing, shelter, ect... ect... One of the things the nazi apologists & fanboys don't like mentioned is how in the spring the general population and bulk of the soldiers welcomed the arrival of West Allied soldiers to desert or surrender to.
Last edited:
10:1
Try around 250:1. With a force comprised of combat rejects, old men and kids whose voices hadn't changed yet, against combat hardened veterans with heavy armor and lots of it.
Steiner had two depleted battalion of Waffen SS INFANTRY available out of his grandly titled III SS Panzer Corps, without any heavy weapons, some didn't even have personal weapons.
The Reich lost ANY remote chance of even mounting a hedgehog defense of inner Berlin when Hitler, in his brilliance, threw the strategic reserve his command staff had managed to squirrel away into a crackpot effort to split the WAllied lines, take Antwerp, and supposedly demoralize the U.S. so badly it would withdraw from the War.
Realistically the Red Army wouldn't have even noticed.
I wonder what would have happened if Hitler didn’t go ahead with the Ardennes Offensive.
End result would have been the same. Losses suffered by the Wallies, primarily the U.S. in the Bulge simply move over to the Red Army (probably at 2-3x since the Heer would be fully on the defensive and fighting from at least hastily prepared positions). Berlin may fall as much as a 10 days later, with more Wehrmacht personnel managing to get to WAllied lines for their surrender.
To do much better than that would require Hitler to allow his commanders to actually set up a good defense in depth starting no later than late November/early December of 1944. At that point in time Hitler was still sure the Reich was going to win the war.
TBF, it probably wouldn't change much. Even if the Ardennes Offensive forces were directed to the Eastern Front to defend against the Vistula-Oder Offensive, they probably wouldn't be able to stop the Red Army from taking the Upper Silesia industrial region (which the loss of would have catastrophic consequences for the German war effort).
I looked up Panzer General, and boy does it get crazy according to Wikipedia...
By my count over a million German soldiers were captured, killed or seriously wounded in 1944-1945 because of Hitler’s obsession with not retreating. The Allies were fortunate to have someone like him in charge rather than Göring or Speer.
Last edited:
Yeah it's nuts. There is an even more cool picture for "Allied Defeat" in allied general with all these Germans smiling but I can't find it online.
TIK history argues what was their other option? They did not have the fuel to maneuver. One cannot retreat indefinitely either. It does seem that if they had better intelligence, simply retreating before massive attacks went off would have helped because the enemy's logistics is usually what stopped them, never really the Germans.
Atom troopers hut everything but the staring cast . So they coukd shoot.. and even jf and yes I understand thr reference fully.. they had those skills so bad. It would still be a floormop
I've gamed out the western front results. Initially you don't notice much. The Allied transportation problems across France are still sorting out, the winter weather wiaves away the air power advantage for a while, the West Wall has only a few holes in it. As January spins out things become faster & simple attrition in the west cracks then collapses the defense. At this point I had to consider the 'Monty Factor'. Do the Allied leaders recognize the opportunity & push hard despite that they are not ready to deliver the planned Colossal Crack intended for March. Or take the Bradley option and rush any Remagen Bridges they capture. The methodical approach leads to the war ending a few weeks earlier in April. The latter depends on at least as good of weather as historical. Its possible with some aggressive air support to execute a Operation ECPLIPSE vs Berlin in March. Paras on the Templehof as Monty and Patton race towards Berlin from the Elbe bridgeheads.
This all assumes the German reserve alluded to remains in the east. OTL the 5thPz Army tried to move east to stop the Reds February-March. Allied attacks on the German transportation system fragmented the residue and it turned into a hundred scattered elements across Germany. Would the same occur to any corps rushed back west after Allies crash across the Rhine, or could they actually interfere?
I bid a full Galaxy plus the Sovetskii Soyuz-class WarShip, 'The Dire Wolf' (LOL no one has a clue what we are on about)
I'll see your Galaxy & Soyuz and raise you one Donnager class Martian warship 
Ahh the Donnager class - the military equivalent of the middle finger.I'll see your Galaxy & Soyuz and raise you one Donnager class Martian warship
I adore that show (and finished the last book recently 😭)