As the title says what would happen if lothain remained in English hands?
The anglicisation of Wales was a result of its industrialisation and vast migration of labour to the south. It was that rather than its relatively small size or ‘proximity’ to England that led to any Anglicisation.Scotland probably speaks Gaelic rather than English or Scots, that is unless TTL's Scotland is too weak to maintain its independence, in which case it probably ends up becoming a northern counterpart to Wales (albeit possibly less Anglicised, due to its size/remoteness).
Anglicisation or Germanicization was a process that began long before the industrialisation revolution.The anglicisation of Wales was a result of its industrialisation and vast migration of labour to the south. It was that rather than its relatively small size or ‘proximity’ to England that led to any Anglicisation.
Depends what you mean. Politically - yes. The enclaves of settler towns and areas like Anglia Transwallina - yes. But for the vast majority of the populace until the 19th century - no. Wales was majority Welsh speaking until the late 19th century.Anglicisation or Germanicization was a process that began long before the industrialisation revolution.
Anglicisation or Germanicization was a process that began long before the industrialisation revolution.
Looking at the maps of Welsh, Bilingual, and English on Wikipedia it suggests it was around the agricultural revolutions that saw the retreat of Welsh and advance of English from the east, though the borders appear quite English speaking.Depends what you mean. Politically - yes. The enclaves of settler towns and areas like Anglia Transwallina - yes. But for the vast majority of the populace until the 19th century - no. Wales was majority Welsh speaking until the late 19th century.
Looking at the maps of Welsh, Bilingual, and English on Wikipedia it suggests it was around the agricultural revolutions that saw the retreat of Welsh and advance of English from the east, though the borders appear quite English speaking.
Oh indeed I just wanted to be clear that the retreat started before then.It was the industrial revolution and the influx of English speakers to the South Wales coal mines that really tipped the scales.
If Im looking at the same source, the Welsh speaking areas seem to occupy the more populated areas while English continues to nibble the edges as it has done since Saxon times really. It’s after 1850 that you can see the really substantial shift and I believe it was the 1911 census that showed Welsh as the minority language. There was a huge influx from Welsh speaking areas into towns like Merthyr but this was matched and then far exceeded by migration from England and elsewhere. I’ve read that Wales was proportionately the second largest importer of labour in the world in the 19th century after the US - not sure I can find a citation for that, mind you. Welsh didnt stand a chance in the face of that influx and in the face of the creation of a new South Wales political and cultural identity that didn’t rely on the language to see itself as ‘Welsh’. To be honest, the incomers may have Anglicised Wales linguistically but they themselves were Cymricised culturally. Their children would see themselves as Welsh - and would look dubiously at any assertion they were ‘Anglicised’. To say the least...!Looking at the maps of Welsh, Bilingual, and English on Wikipedia it suggests it was around the agricultural revolutions that saw the retreat of Welsh and advance of English from the east, though the borders appear quite English speaking.
Pretty substantial nibbling though since Cardiff and Pembroke are shown as English speaking since 1750 but I'll accept your point for urban centres outside those.If Im looking at the same source, the Welsh speaking areas seem to occupy the more populated areas while English continues to nibble the edges as it has done since Saxon times really. It’s after 1850 that you can see the really substantial shift and I believe it was the 1911 census that showed Welsh as the minority language. There was a huge influx from Welsh speaking areas into towns like Merthyr but this was matched by migration from England and elsewhere. I’ve read that Wales was proportionately the second largest importer of labour in the world in the 19th century after the US - not sure I can find a citation for that, mind you.
Cardiff was a tiny place in comparison to Merthyr at that time.Pretty substantial nibbling though since Cardiff and Pembroke are shown as English speaking since 1750 but I'll accept your point for urban centres outside those.
As I said I'll accept your point for land outside those.Cardiff was a tiny place in comparison to Merthyr at that time.
As I said I'll accept your point for land outside those.
I guess ‘urban’ is pushing it to describe Cardiff and Pembroke at the time - although anywhere in Wales would stretch the definition of the word to breaking point before the 19th century.As I said I'll accept your point for land outside those.