As the title says what would happen if lothain remained in English hands?
WI: England keeps lothain?
- Thread starter The Anglo-Dutch Union
- Start date
The border reivers have always been of particular interest to me because I descend (admittedly to a very small degree) from a Reiver family. Throughout that period, until the Personal Union, the reivers were useful to both kingdoms and I guess you'd still have them, or an analogue to them for a dozen miles or so either side of the border. Because of this Edinburgh probably doesn't ever become the city it did 'The Athens of the North' and is perhaps more akin to OTL Newcastle.
I assume you mean Lothian?
In which case Scotland stays based around Perth and has a more highland flavour. Strathclyde might even be independent.
The whole history of Scotland and its relationship with England could change massively.
In which case Scotland stays based around Perth and has a more highland flavour. Strathclyde might even be independent.
The whole history of Scotland and its relationship with England could change massively.
Scotland becomes more like the northern version of Wales. It is both weaker and remains more Celtic in character.
Scotland probably speaks Gaelic rather than English or Scots, that is unless TTL's Scotland is too weak to maintain its independence, in which case it probably ends up becoming a northern counterpart to Wales (albeit possibly less Anglicised, due to its size/remoteness).
A much reduced Scotland may also not have enough power to kick out Norse influence from over the northernmost provinces of the kingdom (that is Caithness, Sutherland, Ross, Inverness and Moray). ITTL the Scottish Highlands may take on a much more mixed character.
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The anglicisation of Wales was a result of its industrialisation and vast migration of labour to the south. It was that rather than its relatively small size or ‘proximity’ to England that led to any Anglicisation.
Anglicisation or Germanicization was a process that began long before the industrialisation revolution.
Depends what you mean. Politically - yes. The enclaves of settler towns and areas like Anglia Transwallina - yes. But for the vast majority of the populace until the 19th century - no. Wales was majority Welsh speaking until the late 19th century.
Looking at the maps of Welsh, Bilingual, and English on Wikipedia it suggests it was around the agricultural revolutions that saw the retreat of Welsh and advance of English from the east, though the borders appear quite English speaking.
It was the industrial revolution and the influx of English speakers to the South Wales coal mines that really tipped the scales.
Oh indeed I just wanted to be clear that the retreat started before then.
If Im looking at the same source, the Welsh speaking areas seem to occupy the more populated areas while English continues to nibble the edges as it has done since Saxon times really. It’s after 1850 that you can see the really substantial shift and I believe it was the 1911 census that showed Welsh as the minority language. There was a huge influx from Welsh speaking areas into towns like Merthyr but this was matched and then far exceeded by migration from England and elsewhere. I’ve read that Wales was proportionately the second largest importer of labour in the world in the 19th century after the US - not sure I can find a citation for that, mind you. Welsh didnt stand a chance in the face of that influx and in the face of the creation of a new South Wales political and cultural identity that didn’t rely on the language to see itself as ‘Welsh’. To be honest, the incomers may have Anglicised Wales linguistically but they themselves were Cymricised culturally. Their children would see themselves as Welsh - and would look dubiously at any assertion they were ‘Anglicised’. To say the least...!
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Pretty substantial nibbling though since Cardiff and Pembroke are shown as English speaking since 1750 but I'll accept your point for urban centres outside those.
As I said I'll accept your point for land outside those.
I guess ‘urban’ is pushing it to describe Cardiff and Pembroke at the time - although anywhere in Wales would stretch the definition of the word to breaking point before the 19th century.As I said I'll accept your point for land outside those.