In OTL, Edward IV was offered one of Philippe of Burgundy's Bourbon nieces as a bride, with Philippe hinting that the offer was still on the cards up until Edward announced that he was going to marry Elizabeth Woodville. But what would happen if Edward decided to marry one of the Bourbons instead, specifically Joanna of Bourbon (b. 1442)?Warwick still negotiates the match to Bona of Savoy as per OTL, so he might still feel screwed over. Would he still betray Edward, or would he remain loyal since a Bourbon is better than a mere noblewoman by miles?
WI: Edward IV marries Philippe of Burgundy's niece?
- Thread starter RedKing
- Start date
Would they even need that marriage if they are already allied with burgundy?
They would, but they’d be behind Mary of Burgundy and Joanna’s siblings and their children.
Why not Katherine as was proposed iotl?
Without his reputation being yeeted out the door and his influence not being eroded (or if so more gradually than otl), I don't particularly see Warwick switching over entirely. He may still stir some trouble, he may not.
A very weak one.
Edward would definitely want it, Charles perhaps not.
Were there negotiations for Katherine in particular? According the wiki, Joanna is the only one who is free and makes the most sense age wise.
Yeah, he ‘d probably refuse to turn up to a few battles and maybe hint towards the Edward being a bastard rumours, but that would probably be it.
Yeah, it depends on how the Lancasters do in alt, in OTL he seems to have only wanted an alliance with England, regardless of who was in charge.
Ah, I see, but my idea was for Warwick to have still negotiate the French match, with Edward then coining out and marrying a Bourbon, so Joanna works better for that.
Warwick was negotiating the match also according to Bob.
What.
England and Bourbon aren't exactly in close proximity so not sure how Edward will "coin out" or how Joanna works better. Edward is not known to have an aversion to older women.
I never heard of this one before.
*coming
Okay, will go with Catherine then.
It's not the woman in particular just not sure how Edward can marry in secret to Joanna as you seem to be implying. Or do you mean Edward will negotiate for Joanna in secret?
Well, if Warwick already negotiated for Edward and Katherine pre-accession then went off and said he preferred a French match but Edward still went with the Burgundy match, there's not a whole lot Warwick could be angry about. An alliance with Burgundy is still a good idea and Edward is anti-French (can't remember when Louis XI openly began supporting Margaret/Henry against Edward).
As you point out, Warwick may still throw a fit but nothing compared to otl, as @CaptainShadow says. Especially if his power is only reduced gradually. If Edward/Katherine manage to have a son early on, there's even less of a chance of Warwick doing anything as his main channel of influence in deposing Edward (George) would be further from the throne.
I think Louis supported them after Bona was rejected, though he did view the Lancastrians as the rightful rulers prior to the rebuttal.
Yeah, Edward likely keeps his throne, though his son is another question. Edward Jr is a descendant of Louis I, Duke of Bourbon, who is reported to have been mentally unstable, a trait he is believed to have passed on to Charles VI and Henry VI, so he might inherit the gene, leaving the door open for Clarence’s descendants or the Lancastrians to seize the throne.
I think that can be a hit or miss since none of the Tudors had inherited the trait and I REALLY doubt Edward would just have one son. This is ALT Queen Catherine ( We’re going with Catherine right?) would be in a constant state of either pregnancy or getting ready to give birth if we go by Edward IV in the OTL as he seemed to be quit amorous.
I wouldn’t say none of the Tudors had it, Henry VIII may very well have inherited it, which explains the insanity of his final years. Of course if Edward has numeral sons the damage wouldn’t be as bad, though it would still give Clarence’s line or the Lancasters a chance to take back the throne.
That's what I thought, as I think in 1462/3 Louis wanted a treaty with Edward, though Louis being Louis, he was just going to play everyone. And I really doubt he cared at all about who the "rightful" rulers of England were, all he cared about was who he would be able to control more. And that was always going to be Henry.
I mean, maybe. I don't personally think it'd have a massive impact as only a few of Louis of Bourbon's descendants were affected, and as @happy35 said, I find it highly unlikely Edward would only have the one son. 2 or 3 like otl is more likely imo, and if he can get one before 1470 and dies on schedule, he's pretty set. And it leaves Clarence's line potentially open to a usurpation, but they'd come after Edward's other sons anyway, and it'd have to be some miracle for the Lancastrians to get a sniff in.
Though if there's no readeption, what even happens to the Lancastrians? If the POD is pre-1463 (when Edward's ittl bride married otl) then the Lancastrians are in Scotland. Are they still going to be able to flee to France? And what'd happen to them there? As the 1460s and 70s ebb away so will all remaining support for the Lancastrians bar their most hardcore base. Edward of Westminster is probably a bargaining chip for Louis, I'd assume.
I agree Edward's going to have more than one son, but it is possible that the heir is a Henry VI like figure. True about Clarence's line, they are probably not going to try anything in this scenario.
They'd probably hop between Scotland and France before finally settling down in Lorraine, or Anjou, where Edward's Grandfather rules. He might also inherit some of his Grandfather's lands too, since I have seen it being proposed in other threads.
I’m not sure @Red King but Let’s say by chance Edward’s son inherited the same illness as Henry, Edward would still have a spare son (s) to take over and there is no way ALL of them inheriting the illness. Clarence line wouldn’t be considered for anything, and the Lancasters in this scenario HAVE no chance. Since I’m pretty sure the Spider king would be trying to scheme to get a chunk of Burgundy so the marriage between his son Charles and ATL York princess might go through. If I remember correctly Louis wasn’t exactly pro Lancaster from the start, he was in Burgundy for a while with Duke Qi Phillip who is pro-yorkist. What benefits could the Lancasters give Louis?
I agree, I never said they were all going to get the illness, just that the heir might get it, which would cause some trouble, depending on whether it’s simple breakdowns like Henry, or full on madness like Charles (who thought he was named George at one point).
They could always try and press their own claim, especially if George is alive. Though I agree they are unlikely to actually get the throne.
I never meant to say they would get the throne, that was poor wording on my part. I meant to say they would try to seize the throne, meaning they’re more likely to cause some trouble, is a better way to put it.
If he is scheming to get Burgundy, and if Mary is still Charles’s heiress, Louis’s son wouldn’t be marrying a Yorkist Princess, when he can get himself the greatest heiress in Europe, assuming all goes well for France. Though it could still go ahead, though that would isolate Burgundy a little.
He wasn’t fully committed, but did continue to recognise them as the rightful Kings until the very end, partly due to the Bona rebuttal, partly due to the French hobby of antagonising the English. The latter is easily seen with his determination to get Henry Tudor into his hands in the 1470s and 80s.
This means nothing tbh. Charles the Bold was a Lancastrian sympathiser for years, only abandoning them after the Readeption, when all feasible Lancastrian claimants (as far they knew) were dead
Calais, an England that doesn’t want to eat them, knocking off one of Burgundy’s allies, etc.
Though I agree that the Lancasters probably don’t get the throne back here.
Whatever mental issues Henry VIII had were probably due to his circumstances and possibly the head injury in 1536 rather than something inherited from Charles the Mad. Henry VIII never had delusions or periods of catatonia.