Hierosolyma
Banned
What do you think would happen if the Crusader States survived Saladin/other Arabs, and were still in existence by the time the Ottomans made it to the Levant? Would the Ottomans try to subjugate them? Would they succeed?
WI: Crusader States survive until the Ottoman Era
- Thread starter Hierosolyma
- Start date
Marc
Donor
The Principality of Antioch and the County of Tripoli are, implausibly but possible, survivors. The Kingdom of Jerusalem is really improbable, The County of Edessa was a doomed case of blind arrogance.
Selim II ends their existence sometime around 1571 (riffing on the conquest of Cyprus).
Selim II ends their existence sometime around 1571 (riffing on the conquest of Cyprus).
Quite a few dead butterflies here, but the only way the Frankish Levant remains is by rolling a string of 20s on the diplomatic tables unless we are looking at a massive commitment early on so... depending on how fast they offer fealty Constantinople may not bother but if they did there is no way to hold out (although the nobility remaining grandees/governors if they convert has precedent).
Yes the Ottomans would overrun them, but surviving Crusader states would also have dealt with a lot of other Muslim conquers which would have overrun them, so I would expect them to be great at diplomacy, and it would be pretty obvious that the Ottoman would overrun them, so I would think there would be a good chance that they made a agreement to become vassals instead of being run over.
But if they’re run over, these states will be overwhelming to completely Christian, so the Levant will end much more like Balkans under Ottoman rule than OTL Levant with a slow conversion to Islam, but Christians still making up the vast majority by the 19th century.
If any part of the Frankish Levant survives the odds of Osman I being born, let alone founding a successful beylik, are nil.
However, subbing out the Ottomans for a generic Turkish Islamic power controlling Anatolia probably works just fine—although the butterflies from Frankish diplomacy make that less likely too...
It barely existed IOTL at the fringe of Frankish patrimony and was basically a textbook case of detrimental overextension.
However, subbing out the Ottomans for a generic Turkish Islamic power controlling Anatolia probably works just fine—although the butterflies from Frankish diplomacy make that less likely too...
It barely existed IOTL at the fringe of Frankish patrimony and was basically a textbook case of detrimental overextension.
Butterflies. The Crusader States surviving would be a very large change to world history, and changing that would cause future events down the line to change. Perhaps some other Turkish ruler would form a mighty empire in this world, perhaps not, but if someone did, it wouldn't be Osman.
Not sure about this part. Far less area and inaccessible terrain to work with than Rumelia and more importantly playing politics with the neighboring Muslim rulers well enough seem to preclude clearing the resident Muslims out.
And the Regno di Candia until almost the 18th. However i think the OP was thinking of the Levant....
He may still be born ; it's not impossible for his parents to meet TTL. In fact when he was born OTL (around 1254) the Crusader states existed.
But the circumstances that allowed him to rise to prominence are most likely changed.
Last edited:
The Duchy of Athens existed until it was conquered by the Ottomans as well.
I don't think it would affect WWII, but I do believe Messi would play for a club in Antioch while Ronaldo would play for Acre. The Crusader states are going to have awesome football clubs!
Germaniac
Donor
Without Egypt the crusader states are doomed to a short life. Wars ij Europe will eventually drag the medieval states eyes away from the Levant, once support is gone the states are going to have to defend themselves without western support. You would need (Along with egypt) a strong Byzantine state to protect them, falling under Constantinoples influence.
A stronger ERE means that it will likely butterfly any turkish penetration further west.
I don't see it as likely but for the crusader states to survive you would need both the North and South secured. If the ERE still falls, which without the fourth crusade likely wouldn't happen if the Crusader states are still strong enough to exist, then there is nothing stopping that state from overrunning the Levant before Osman is on the scene.
A stronger ERE means that it will likely butterfly any turkish penetration further west.
I don't see it as likely but for the crusader states to survive you would need both the North and South secured. If the ERE still falls, which without the fourth crusade likely wouldn't happen if the Crusader states are still strong enough to exist, then there is nothing stopping that state from overrunning the Levant before Osman is on the scene.
The County of Edessa was landlocked, much of its territories were beyond the Euphrates and the entire county formed a rather vulnerable salient into Seljuk lands, had poor relations with its neighbor in Antioch, was just generally remote from the rest of Christiandom (moreso than any of the other Crusader States, again due to lacking a coastline) and from the other Crusader States.
Aha! You all forget the strongest, though perhaps most hated, crusader state.
The imperium romaniae!
The imperium romaniae!