octoberman

Banned
What if all of british america joined american revolution ?
The POD is Caribbean and Guyana don't have absent landlords but settled ones. Quebec act is not passed causing it to join the 13 colonies in revolution. Nova scotia and Newfoundland join due to the increased proximity to the rebels.

How will this affect the revolutionary war ?
How will these new states change America ?
How will this affect the slavery issue and the civil war ?
How will Quebec fit in America ?
 
France, Spain and the Netherlands would prbbly be willing to support the rebels quite earlier on than iotl
 
Newfoundland as an island would be crushed. Nova Scotia being American would critically weaken Canada and make the British presence unsustainable.
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
If you don't pass the Quebec Act then one of the main grievances of the 13 Colonies is removed.

If the Quebec Act never happens, then quite possibly the Francophone population might rise up at the same time, but never with the intention of joining the same polity. They would probably aim at a return to French rule (after all, the idea of colonial independence really has few precedents before the successful ARW)
 

octoberman

Banned
1000053017.png

Map of British America on the eve of American revolution
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
View attachment 880179
Map of British America on the eve of American revolution
This includes the Hudson Bay Company lands. I would think the only way those would be included would be if the militia of other colonies/states invaded them. I don't think they have the population to do anything on their own, and the company agents and employees would have no incentive to join a revolution.
 
Nova Scotia being American would critically weaken Canada and make the British presence unsustainable.

Except that both Canada and NS are separated from the 13 Colonies by vast swathes of virgin forest, so that effectively they are in the position of islands and the British army can pick them off one at a time. They are far more accessible from the sea than by land, Ditto for Guyana and any Caribbean possessions that tried to join in.
 
If you don't pass the Quebec Act then one of the main grievances of the 13 Colonies is removed.

If the Quebec Act never happens, then quite possibly the Francophone population might rise up at the same time, but never with the intention of joining the same polity. They would probably aim at a return to French rule (after all, the idea of colonial independence really has few precedents before the successful ARW)
I agree that a Quebecois co-belligerency is much more likely than Quebec seeking to join the USA.
This includes the Hudson Bay Company lands. I would think the only way those would be included would be if the militia of other colonies/states invaded them. I don't think they have the population to do anything on their own, and the company agents and employees would have no incentive to join a revolution.
True. With that being said, if Nova Scotia successfully revolts along with the 13 colonies (and there's no guarantee of success), then I don't think Britain would be in a position to stop Rupert's Land from going to either Quebec or the USA.
Except that both Canada and NS are separated from the 13 Colonies by vast swathes of virgin forest, so that effectively they are in the position of islands and the British army can pick them off one at a time. They are far more accessible from the sea than by land, Ditto for Guyana and any Caribbean possessions that tried to join in.
Depends on the part of Nova Scotia. With Halifax, you're correct, but at that time Nova Scotia also included what is now New Brunswick, which is where Eddie's revolt took place. I think getting Nova Scotia would be difficult, but it's not ASB. Guyana and the West Indies wouldn't be joining.
 
Depends on the part of Nova Scotia. With Halifax, you're correct, but at that time Nova Scotia also included what is now New Brunswick, which is where Eddie's revolt took place. I think getting Nova Scotia would be difficult, but it's not ASB


They could get it even if only by a fluke, but the problem would be *holding* it for any length of time. . Please correct me if you know different, but my impression has always been that its *land* communications with NE were between poor and nonexistent.
 
Problem #1: the Quebec Act only really formalized what was already happening in Canada in the first place, side-stepping the law in order to keep things moving because of obvious demographic reasons and the differences between French colonial law and English common law. That and the British wanted to create a conservative elite that would naturally look to the British for protection, much like what already existed in the UK and the 13 anyway (in fact, I'd argue the model for this was Ireland, but with the Catholic Church in place of the C of E because it was clear to everyone that the Francophones were not going to convert en masse and the Catholic Church was struggling to maintain relevance in Francophone Canada, operating in survival mode after the Conquest). Some form of a Quebec Act was going to happen anyway, even if not exactly like the OTL Act, but TBH even then, no Quebec Act really doesn't change much of what is happening. At the time, this wasn't really seen as oppression per se, because various elements of the British military were doing their best to win over the hearts and minds of the people, but as the price for doing business. We have a conception in the popular American narrative of US history that Canada was a pretty tyrannical place in the immediate aftermath of the Conquest, compounded by the Quebec Act as both a last-ditch concession and as arbitrary legislation that deprived Quebec of a proper government and a common legal system in English law, projecting onto Canada all the same afflictions that affected the US for over a century at that point - not helped by French-Canadian nationalists later on using a similar narrative of oppression for very different conclusions - but the reality in pre-Quebec Act Canada was very different from what that narrative suggests. A Canadien living in Canada before and after the Quebec Act was passed would not have noticed much of a difference (well, not in a manner that Americans would recognize - the seigneural system's return was a bit of a sore point, but at the time no one in the 13 was going to understand that, not only because similar mechanisms were already in place in the South but in order to have France as an ally, they basically had to overlook what was actually happening there since the rebels were desperate for any help they could get). True, there had been attempts early on to assimilate the Canadiens into the British milieu, but those proved to be unworkable very fast - hence the compromises that ultimately made the Quebec Act possible.

The Canadiens are not going to revolt, if they do at all, to the same degree that the rest of the 13 did because the different colonial experiences are different. Plus, even if Canadiens were non-practicing, the 13 in general were really leery of taking on a bunch of Francophone Catholics - because it hits way too many sensitive spots for Americans, not just the France-England rivalry (compounded by the French themselves actually being the enemy in numerous wars, most recently the Seven Years/French and Indian War from which the Conquest comes from) but also because of a long strain of anti-Catholicism that dates back to the Reformation and the formation of the C of E in the first place - and it's that lack of a common language that seriously hampered the efforts of the rebels to communicate with both the Canadiens and the occupation of lower Canada early on in the Revolution. So I could see Canada's effort going as well as OTL, or even worse for the rebels in part because the only ones that would have really revolted would have actually been a small minority mainly among transplants from the 13 - with the Canadiens indifferent/neutral to what was happening and/or even actively hostile against the rebels because the rebels are perceived as being insensitive - what worked elsewhere was not going to translate well in Canada.

At the same time, I don't see Canada seriously considering going back to French colonial rule - there was too much bad blood between the Palace and the Canadiens themselves to consider restarting that enterprise (not to mention that Canada was a money sink and unprofitable for the French - Haiti, OTOH, as well as various other plantation colonies elsewhere, were profitable and hence more likely to retain French colonial rule). That France became a US ally at all is actually pretty remarkable, but it should be noted that nowhere in all of that did the French show any interest of taking Canada back. If the Canadiens do revolt, then, it would be against the rebels (for basically mistreating them) and either bring back British colonial authority or find some sort of neutral status that would still be very favorable for the British. So while it would not be strictly pro-British, I could see why it would be perceived as such by both the rebels and London. The status quo, while not great (and could definitely use reform), was working fine - so what's the point of rebellion?

Problem #2: Newfoundland was simply not interested much in terms of what was happening on the Mainland. While they know that it's happening, the island is simply too far away to make any real difference anyway - not to mention that Newfoundlanders were far more interested in what was happening in Britain instead. When you consider that permanent settlement of the island was only legalized at that time very recently, and hence most immigrants were people who still had family connections back in Ireland and southwestern England, then it's easier to see why they were not too terribly concerned with what the rebels were up to. Also, Newfoundland does not share the same grievances that the 13 did with the Board of Trade, the Colonial Office, and the like - because Newfoundland, for a long time, had a very different relationship through the Admiralty with the Board of Trade, as Newfoundland was technically a fishery and not really a colony. Permanent settlement was only really legalized so that there would be, essentially, support staff for the Grand Banks fishery operations. So, once again, we hit a problem in terms of lack of interest from the people actually living in a place WRT the Revolution.

Now, I'm not suggesting that the whole premise of the OP is completely ASB. What I am suggesting is that, when the reality of both Canada and Newfoundland are taken into account, it's hard for me to come up with a scenario where both could join in - and for Canada in particular, the few issues that are salient for Canadiens are not that salient for the 13, so it's like the Canadiens and the Americans are talking past each other. Plus, in times of uncertainty and instability, it's always a good idea to keep one's head down and avoid controversy where possible.
 
They could get it even if only by a fluke, but the problem would be *holding* it for any length of time. . Please correct me if you know different, but my impression has always been that its *land* communications with NE were between poor and nonexistent.
The main artery of communication between New England and Nova Scotia was the sea. As long as it was possible to move stuff over water, than the problem of land communication can be temporarily mitigated.
 
The main artery of communication between New England and Nova Scotia was the sea. As long as it was possible to move stuff over water, than the problem of land communication can be temporarily mitigated.

*Very* temporarily. As soon as the RN arrives on the scene, the jig is up.

Afaics, up until the Peace treaty, the US controlled only the settled portions of the 13 colonies and some wilderness immediately adjoining them. Even Florida was out of reach due to intervening wild country, and NS and Canada even more so. AIUI they only even got a border on the Great Lakes because Britain was anxious for an early peace, and so made concessions which they couldn't have won on the battlefield.
 
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*Very* temporarily. As soon as the RN arrives on the scene, the jig is up.

Afaics, up until the Peace treaty, the US controlled only the settled portions of the 13 colonies and some wilderness immediately adjoining them. Even Florida was out of reach due to intervening wild country, and NS and Canada even more so. AIUI they only even got a border on the Great Lakes because Britain was anxious for an early peace, and so made concessions which they couldn't have won on the battlefield.
I don't think maritime communication would be much of an issue even with the Royal Navy. The patriots managed to conduct maritime raids. If they can do that, they can send ships with couriers. The issue would be sending in enough ships to supply a garrison. That's why I said I think its unlikely, but not ASB, assuming we're talking about eastern Nova Scotia. Western Nova Scotia (aka New Brunswick).

As for Florida, that didn't go to the Patriots. It went to the Spanish. I think the war at sea would depend primarily on events in Europe. Is Britain still at war with France, Spain, and the Netherlands? Have they pushed the League of Armed Neutrality to exercise joint retaliation? Or on the other side, do they have fewer enemies?
 
As for Florida, that didn't go to the Patriots. It went to the Spanish.
At the peace treaty yes, but as part of a deal. East Florida at least was still in British hands at war's end. They did conquer West Florida, but that's because it was accessible from that direction. It wasn't accessible from the US side.

As for New Brunswick, I don't deny that the US could have got here. I just don't see how they could *stay* there for any length of time. The lines of communication were all in Britain's favour.

The converse applied in Georgia. Britain was able to seize it in 1778, but couldn't hold it if SC remained in American hands.
 
Depends on the part of Nova Scotia. With Halifax, you're correct, but at that time Nova Scotia also included what is now New Brunswick, which is where Eddie's revolt took place. I think getting Nova Scotia would be difficult, but it's not ASB. Guyana and the West Indies wouldn't be joining.
What if the Eddy Rebellion succeeds, but only Nova Scotia west of the peninsula (today New Brunswick) becomes Patriot, the east (with Halifax) remains in British hands? Or is that not sustainable
 
What if the Eddy Rebellion succeeds, but only Nova Scotia west of the peninsula (today New Brunswick) becomes Patriot, the east (with Halifax) remains in British hands? Or is that not sustainable

If GB holds NS and PEI, I don't see how NB can be held for any length of time. Any Continental force sent there would be very difficult to supply.

With all that wilderness between it and NE, it is virtually an offshore island, and the Continentals hadn't much luck at holding these. They couldn't even hold Long Island, which was far easier of access than any part of Canada or NS would be.
 

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
They are far more accessible from the sea than by land, Ditto for Guyana and any Caribbean possessions that tried to join in.

They could get it even if only by a fluke, but the problem would be *holding* it for any length of time.
On the one hand, it is good point about how isolated, either by land geography, or community sentiment, all the centers of Canadian settlement are from the 13 Colonies, making a rebellion or seizure by Continental/Patriot forces *persistence* in the face of British sea power very difficult to impossible.

At the same time, I noticed we have not been talking about Britain's Caribbean possessions, assuming pretty much the same about them. But I would note, even if the Continental Army is basically helpless to succor pro-Patriot risings or expeditionary forces infar Canadian locations, or support pro-Patriot rebellions in the British Caribbean, and the British have superb mobility to crush such individually, the Continental Army is not the only option. For the Bourbon powers, revolts by the British planters and merchants of the Caribbean territories would be big, attention grabbing news, at least as big, or bigger, than news of rebellion in Massachusetts, Virginia, and Anglo-American fights in Manhattan and Brooklyn. And it would all be closer to where the French and Spanish (and Dutch) operate on a daily basis than the North American Atlantic seaboard.

Such widespread copycat revolts in Jamaica, Guyana, British Honduras, the Bahamas, the British Antilles, while easy to crush one-by-one, could tempt the Bourbon powers into early intervention. They would offer immediate trade opportunities for France and Spain, and the French could dispatch powder, guns, ships, and soldiers from Haiti to Jamaica quickly or from Martinique and Guadalupe to the British Antilles/Grenadines quickly. The Spanish could dispatch powder, guns, ships, soldiers quickly to British Honduras, British Nicaragua, British Guiana from nearby mainland possessions, to Jamaica and the Bahamas and Florida from Cuba, to the Turks and Caicos from Puerto Rico.

That cooperation by proximity doesn't work as well in the north, but St. Pierre & Miquelon could be a staging base for raids on Newfoundland.
 
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