WI/AHC: Standard Italian based off North Italian dialects

[Nanwe]

OTL, Dante's influence in bringing up the issues of a common Italian literary language and the influence of Florentine writers like Dante, but also Petrarca and Boccaccio resulted in the slow but sure acceptance of the Tuscan dialect of Italian as the standard form of the Italian language. However, during the Quattrocento and the Trecento, various other Italian dialects had reached the literary form, and indeed there are clear indications of the existence of a sort of Veneto-Lombard koine.

Your challenge would be then to have this form prevail, totally or just in the north at least, over the Tuscan prestige dialect-to-be, and what this dialect might look like closer to the present.

My own personal idea is that if the Visconti conquests of most of modern northern Italy had not been reverted, and the Po valleys had been largely unified under a single dynasty, that this would have been easier, provided that the Visconti had decided to favour Lombard (in the mediaeval sense of the word) authors, resulting in the development of parallel prestige dialects in central and northern Italy.

 

[TheNerd_]

Well, the Visconti had to deal with a succession crisis in the 13th century and by the 15th century, Venice was already declining due to the shift of trade from the Mediterranean to the Atlantic. I don't know if they could maintain that kind of power considering Tuscany was placed right in the middle of a major pilgrim route.

 

[Frrf]

Given that Lombard is a Gallo-Romance language, rather than the South Romance spoken in Tuscany southwards, this could lead to Sicilian-Neapolitan being recognised as a seperate language, rather than a dialect.

 

[LordKalvan]

Petrarca was the tutor of the young Gian Galeazzo, which goes to show that the dominance of the Tuscan dialect was already established by the middle of 14th century. Humanism and Renaissance would strengthen this dominance, and it looks like unlikely that it might be dislodged by a northern Italian dialect

 

[John7755 يوحنا]

Given that Lombard is a Gallo-Romance language, rather than the South Romance spoken in Tuscany southwards, this could lead to Sicilian-Neapolitan being recognised as a seperate language, rather than a dialect.

It is a separate language. It is propaganda and perception of nationalism which renders it as a dialect.

 

[A Most Sovereign Lady]

I thought Italian was based on the dialect of Piedmontese? I apologize for my egregious ignorance in advance.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

My guess that this would mean NO standard Italian. Tuscan .ot only had the advantage of the poets, but also a more central central position in the language gradient. Tuscan was probably pretty comprehensible to Romans, say, to an extent that your northern FrancoItalian wouldnt be.

 

[funnyhat]

I thought Italian was based on the dialect of Piedmontese? I apologize for my egregious ignorance in advance.

No, it’s based on Tuscan. Piedmontese is considerably different, closer to Occitan.

 

[A Most Sovereign Lady]

No, it’s based on Tuscan. Piedmontese is closer to Occitan.

Thanks, apologies once more.

 

[Frrf]

It is a separate language. It is propaganda and perception of nationalism which renders it as a dialect.

I am aware. I meant that it might be recognised by government and general society as a seperate language.

 

[John7755 يوحنا]

I am aware. I meant that it might be recognised by government and general society as a seperate language.

If the Italian nationalist opinion does not accept Venetian as a separate language, then it will not accept Sicilian. Both are entities never part of the defined Kingdom of Italy and even in a symbolic mode, have no relation to being a dialect of 'Florentine' or 'Italian'. Lombardy and and areas nearby, have at least a commonality in the regard of symbolism and position within a particular medieval entity, other examples, such as Sardinia, Sicily, Venice, etc lack even this.

 

[WeissRaben]

An Italian koinè based on Florentine had already begun appearing around the 12th century, and by the 13th it was already pretty solid. You would probably have to look at a larger influence of Northern Italy on the rest of the peninsula at least as far as the 9th century, when the post-Vulgar languages were developing; a Reconquista-like event in Southern Italy would then cement the dominance of this Gallo-Romance Standard Italian.

 

[kasumigenx]

An Italian koinè based on Florentine had already begun appearing around the 12th century, and by the 13th it was already pretty solid. You would probably have to look at a larger influence of Northern Italy on the rest of the peninsula at least as far as the 9th century, when the post-Vulgar languages were developing; a Reconquista-like event in Southern Italy would then cement the dominance of this Gallo-Romance Standard Italian.

This is actually ironic since the Northern dialects are similar to Spanish and Catalan already.

 

[My Username is Inigo Montoya]

Protestant Northern Italy. The Tuscan prestige dialect becomes associated with popery, protestant princes commission translations of the Bible from the original Hebrew and Greek directly into Piemontese, Lombard, Venetian so that every one of their subjects will be able to understand and study God's word for themselves.

 

[ramones1986]

Protestant Northern Italy. The Tuscan prestige dialect becomes associated with popery, protestant princes commission translations of the Bible from the original Hebrew and Greek directly into Piemontese, Lombard, Venetian so that every one of their subject will be able understand and study God's word for themselves.

In short, a Waldensian wank is necessary.