Why didn't Vladislaus II of Hungary and Bohemia succeed his father as King of Poland-Lithuania?

[Zulfurium]

Vladislaus II of Hungary and Bohemia was the eldest son of Casimir IV Jagellion of Poland and Lithuania. As I was looking through the Jagellion line I realized that things didn't quite line up. When Casimir died he was succeeded by his third son in Poland, John I of Poland, and fourth son, Alexander I, in Lithuania. When John died he was succeeded by Alexander. When Alexander died he was followed by their fifth brother Sigismund.

The inheritance in Poland and Lithuania completely ignored Vladislaus from what I can find, and I really can't find a good reason why. He was already King of Hungary and Bohemia, with Poland and Lithuania he would have probably been more powerful than the HRE.

Really hope someone can explain this to me...

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Poland was elective monarchy, although election was limited to members of Jagiellon dynasty it didn't follow primogeniture strictly.
Originally Casimir IV intended his second son, also Casimir to succeede him in Poland and his third son to get Hungarian throne, if his plans materialise four Jagiellonian crowns (Bohemian, Hungarian, Polish, Lithuanian) would be divided between four Casimir's sons (Vladislaus, Casimir, John, Alexander).

 

[desmirelle]

At that time, some of those kingdoms/dukedoms were elected or selected. Vlad got Hungary & Bohemia (I believe one or both of these fall into the election category, but I could be wrong). Casimir selected John for Poland & I'm not sure about Lithuania (election/selection - obviously not by primogeniture), maybe Vlad and Dad weren't on the best of terms or Dad thought Vlad would screw it up. Perhaps Vlad couldn't defend more than Hungary & Bohemia and Dad wasn't going to give anyone an excuse to invade. Just because you have vast swathes of land doesn't mean you have the wherewithal to defend them.

 

[desmirelle]

Poland was elective monarchy, although election was limited to members of Jagiellon dynasty it didn't follow primogeniture strictly.

I thought Bohemia was elective as well.....like I said, I only know a little from some research I did a while back. I defer to you on Poland and cheerfully admit I know little about the monarchy of this era there.

 

[Zulfurium]

Thank you both for the rapid response, that cleared it up quite quickly.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

It is true that Vladislaus was weak king. He was called Rex bene or "król dobrze" ("king OK") because allegendly he responded to every petition bene ("dobrze" in Polish, "dobře" in Czech) which could be translated as "OK".

 

[desmirelle]

Which explains why Dad didn't select Vlad......

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Dad selected his second son, Saint Casimir. Unfortunately young Casimir died before his father, he was very pious (he was canonized later) and fasting devasted his health.

 

[Aphrodite]

I thought Bohemia was elective as well.....like I said, I only know a little from some research I did a while back. I defer to you on Poland and cheerfully admit I know little about the monarchy of this era there.

Bohemia Poland and Hungary elected kings at this time though normally the Hungarian crown was hereditary

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Dad selected his second son, Saint Casimir. Unfortunately young Casimir died before his father, he was very pious (he was canonized later) and fasting devasted his health.

From what I can recall - pious certainly, but more St Louis IX-type than Henry VI. He was a good warrior, served as dad's viceroy in Lithuania (or as viceroy of Poland while dad was in Lithuania), and was the focus of more than one plot by the Hungarian nobles to depose Mátyás as king of Hungary. He was captured by Mátyás on one occasion IIRC but then released - basically what Cas wanted to do was emulate his uncle, Wlad III's crusade. There was originally a match planned between him and the Archduchess Kunigunde, but when he took to a life of piety it was scrapped.

 

[Clandango]

Bohemia Poland and Hungary elected kings at this time though normally the Hungarian crown was hereditary

Think the French one was also elective at a point, though like with all the other when a dynasty got planted firm they destroyed those arrangements. Poland lasted surprisingly long. Anyways, I imagine that if there were, perhaps, a successoin of four people to all these thrones from the same dynasty, going father-to-son, that they would do all they could to make it dynastic. Would be difficult to govern such massive swaths of land of course, but perhaps creating various titles giving certain lords hegemony over others would placate them for a bit, seeing it as a good investment. Going to be a lot of issues with deciding whether to fight Pagan Balts, Mongol incursions (if they still had those at that point) Tartar slave raids, Ottoman invasions... and of course you gotta look out for any dynastic lands that get picked up in German. Some valuable stuff over there, though might be a bit of a sideshow. I wonder what the lingua franca for all this will be. Latin, I presume.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Poland remained elective monarchy for so long because Polish kings were extremaly unlucky with lack of heirs. Jagiellons were de facto hereditary rulers and Vasas also would be if they survived longer, even Sobieski could start lasting dynasty with bit of luck. Wettins OTOH have no problem with lack of sons but disastrous political decisions of Augustus II screwed Poland during Great Northern War and elections turned to total farce.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

From what I can recall - pious certainly, but more St Louis IX-type than Henry VI. He was a good warrior, served as dad's viceroy in Lithuania (or as viceroy of Poland while dad was in Lithuania), and was the focus of more than one plot by the Hungarian nobles to depose Mátyás as king of Hungary. He was captured by Mátyás on one occasion IIRC but then released - basically what Cas wanted to do was emulate his uncle, Wlad III's crusade. There was originally a match planned between him and the Archduchess Kunigunde, but when he took to a life of piety it was scrapped.

Casimir IMHO would be good ruler, especially compared to his weak brothers. There is TL on Polish history site where Casimir's survival leads to Jagiellon-wank.

 

[Clandango]

Poland remained elective monarchy for so long because Polish kings were extremaly unlucky with lack of heirs. Jagiellons were de facto hereditary rulers and Vasas also would be if they survived longer, even Sobieski could start lasting dynasty with bit of luck. Wettins OTOH have no problem with lack of sons but disastrous political decisions of Augustus II screwed Poland during Great Northern War and elections turned to total farce.

Was he the one who was hoping that he could get support from others to make Poland hereditary and locked with Wettin Saxony in exchange for them all grabbing chunks they wanted? Up until the point there was none left.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Was he the one who was hoping that he could get support from others to make Poland hereditary and locked with Wettin Saxony in exchange for them all grabbing chunks they wanted? Up until the point there was none left.

Augustus was not idiot, he was better politician that Sobieski. But like Danish king and tsar he supposed that war with Sweden ruled by young, unexperienced king would be easy victory, they couldn't predict that Carl XII is another Lion of the North. Augustus planed to conquer Swedish Livonia and change it into hereditary Wettin duchy, so nobles of PLC would elect his son to the throne to keep Livonia tied to Commonwealth. Insted he get devastation of Poland and Saxony by Swedish forces and weakened PLC turned into Russian protectorate.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Casimir IMHO would be good ruler, especially compared to his weak brothers. There is TL on Polish history site where Casimir's survival leads to Jagiellon-wank.

Would you be so kind as to provide a link? Sounds cool.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Would you be so kind as to provide a link? Sounds cool.

As you wish:
http://www.historycy.org/index.php?showtopic=9039&st=0
But it is all in Polish. Author restarted it around page 70 because he decided that first version contains some mistakes.
To summarise quickly: surviving Casimir, married to Kunigunde of Austria succeeded his father as King of Poland in 1492, Alexander inherited Lithuania like IOTL, Vladislas is King of Bohemia but not of Hungary-his brother John Albert get Hungarian throne instead. Jagiellons are more succesfull at cost of Habsburgs, who are not as powerful like IOTL, not only because they don't get Bohemia and Hungary-John Albert married Germaine de Foix ITTL (it was planned IOTL) so Ferdinand of Aragon married different woman and has kids with her, thus only Castile was inherited by Habsburgs.
If I'll find time I can translate parts of this TL if you wish.

 

[Fehérvári]

Vladislaus gave up his claim on the Polish throne to compensate John after he defeated him in the succession war of Hungary.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

As you wish:
http://www.historycy.org/index.php?showtopic=9039&st=0
But it is all in Polish. Author restarted it around page 70 because he decided that first version contains some mistakes.
To summarise quickly: surviving Casimir, married to Kunigunde of Austria succeeded his father as King of Poland in 1492, Alexander inherited Lithuania like IOTL, Vladislas is King of Bohemia but not of Hungary-his brother John Albert get Hungarian throne instead. Jagiellons are more succesfull at cost of Habsburgs, who are not as powerful like IOTL, not only because they don't get Bohemia and Hungary-John Albert married Germaine de Foix ITTL (it was planned IOTL) so Ferdinand of Aragon married different woman and has kids with her, thus only Castile was inherited by Habsburgs.
If I'll find time I can translate parts of this TL if you wish.

Thank you very much for the link. I did wonder at the possibility of Sigmund I being elected as king of Sweden TTL, but also why Anne de Foix-Candale was chosen OTL (she was descended from all the right people but in all the wrong ways) over Germaine de Foix (who was niece of the French king) for Wladyslaw OTL.