What would the modern world be like if Islam never existed?

[Karlmarx900]

Islam is the second largest religion on earth. What if the religion did not exist? What would the world be like?
What might politics, society, science and culture be like without Islam?

I think that without Islam much of the Middle East outside of Iran would be Christian. Much of Central Asia, northern and Western Africa would also be Christian. Most Arabs might be found on the Arabian peninsula and be much less numerous than in real life. I guess that industrialization may still occur but there would be less religious extremism. With regard to politics there would be more liberalism in the Middle East and North Africa.

 

[Sarthak]

I am going to disabuse the notion of a Christian arabia inevitability. Quoting from another thread:-

From what i understand, having done some research on Arabia, the pagan goddesses Al-Uzza, Al-Lat and Manat were becoming increasing overly revered in Arabia, and soon enough they were starting to encompass all the domains of the other minor gods. It seems that much like Judaism, Arabian paganism was dropping the other gods in favor of these three deities, and Muhammad himself is said to have credited the strength of this trinity during the conquests of Arabia. Should Muhammad not arise, then a unified Arabic paganism centered around Al-Uzza, Al-Lat and Manat would probably arise, and dominate Arabia, perhaps barring Judaistic Yemen. With the population boom in Arabia, the people would eventually try to expand out of the interior, and we could have an Arabic pagan Iraq and Syria, and even Egypt, if they are lucky. There have also been rumors that 'Allah' as a god did exist in arabic paganism, however in a much diverse sense. So really while Islam may not explode and become a thing, other religions coming from Arabia may explode alongside the arabic population boom and conquer a good amount of territory, especially after the Rhoman-Iranic exhaustion.

Also about assertions about paganism going out......this is a popular trope not evidenced.

From Arabia and the Arabs: From the Bronze Age to the Coming of Islam chapter 6,

And before someone makes the Christian = more economic power agreement

The economical advantage of Christianity was so great that the Jews of Yemen worked in tandem with the polytheists to throw the Christians out. The southern nabateans found it so useful that they allowed with the interior tribes to push the encroaching Byzantine armies out repeatedly and politely showed the door to almost every Christian missionary group. Christian trade with Arabia diminished in Arabia after the 480s to the point that the merchants of Hejaz and Arabia were turning towards Persia, India and Africa according to the Book of Himyars. All in all not a guarantee and not at all Christian determinism like what many in this thread believe. In fact the book of Himyars mentions that Christian traders and political power in Arabia was minuscule in comparison to the economic power wileded by the iranics Indians and Africans. Again, Christianity is a possibility but it isn't determined not as likely as you make it out to be.

***

To answer your question directly without quoting myself from another thread, the Levant remains Judeo-Christian, Yemen remains Jewish majority, whilst the rest of Arabia other than Iran and Iraq remains Polytheistic as the religion started to conslidate itself. Also Christianity never had a hold in Central Asia. It was dominantaly Zoroastrian and Buddhist, and remained so until the 11th century, showing its resilience. Also......

there would be less religious extremism. With regard to politics there would be more liberalism in the Middle East and North Africa.

This is a very large stereotype and in conflict with general consensus. Religious Extremism existed in Europe, many times in greater amounts and numbers before the advent of Islam. The Fatimids, Ottomans before the 1800s, and Mamluks were known to be rather liberal empires for their time as well. This is a rather demeaning statement to Islam and all of its adherents, a vast majority of whom are not extremists.

 

[Whiteshore]

Regarding Arabia being Christian, I would say that it would probably be a gradual process of Christianization with outposts of paganism surviving a fairly long period (even IOTL, the Lithuanians took until the 1380s to adopt Christianity and even then, it was politics and not missionaries which drove said conversion).

 

[Abd ar-Rahman II]

Regarding Arabia being Christian, I would say that it would probably be a gradual process of Christianization with outposts of paganism surviving a fairly long period (even IOTL, the Lithuanians took until the 1380s to adopt Christianity and even then, it was politics and not missionaries which drove said conversion).

I would say Arabia would face far less pressure to christianize than Lithuania did I would not suprised be if Arabian paganism survived in the interior to modern day . Also the territory has a very dubious import and would be a difficult to hold into and most of the tentative of various empire to expand into it lead to nothing

 

[DocJamore]

Without the conversion of the Middle East to Islam, Greek High Culture would have probably never declined. It might in fact be held to the gold standard in TTL, alongside Chinese. Hellenization would actually probably increase with parts of the Middle East and Egypt becoming monolingualy Greek speaking. Why Egypt? The Greeks had been entrenched there since the Ptolemaic Dynasty and the Greeks are just as capable of accomplishing the same kind of top-down assimilation there that the Arabs were able to do in OTL. The hundreds of millions of Greek speakers in this timeline would probably look at ours in bewilderment.

 

[Abd ar-Rahman II]

I think that without Islam much of the Middle East outside of Iran would be Christian. Much of Central Asia, northern and Western Africa would also be Christian.

It’s not guaranteed like said in previois

Most Arabs might be found on the Arabian peninsula and be much less numerous than in real life.

Some form of Arab expansion might still happen but it’s unlikely to lead to OTL level of arabisation without Islam

I guess that industrialization may still occur but there would be less religious extremism. With regard to politics there would be more liberalism in the Middle East and North Africa.

We have no way to know if there would be less religious extremism there could be less or even more than OTL the Christian without Islam as a nemesis might be more prone to infighting for religious reason . And no Islam would just create a world « alien » to ours utilising our notion of liberalism is probably far from a certainty

 

[Jimbo808]

If a world doesn't have an Islamic Golden Age I would think it would be a worse place to live; possible the sciences and mathematics would not be as advanced as it is now.

Paper may have reached Europe at a later date thus stalling the progress of mass literature.

 

[Silver01]

I am going to disabuse the notion of a Christian arabia inevitability. Quoting from another thread:-

From what i understand, having done some research on Arabia, the pagan goddesses Al-Uzza, Al-Lat and Manat were becoming increasing overly revered in Arabia, and soon enough they were starting to encompass all the domains of the other minor gods. It seems that much like Judaism, Arabian paganism was dropping the other gods in favor of these three deities, and Muhammad himself is said to have credited the strength of this trinity during the conquests of Arabia. Should Muhammad not arise, then a unified Arabic paganism centered around Al-Uzza, Al-Lat and Manat would probably arise, and dominate Arabia, perhaps barring Judaistic Yemen. With the population boom in Arabia, the people would eventually try to expand out of the interior, and we could have an Arabic pagan Iraq and Syria, and even Egypt, if they are lucky. There have also been rumors that 'Allah' as a god did exist in arabic paganism, however in a much diverse sense. So really while Islam may not explode and become a thing, other religions coming from Arabia may explode alongside the arabic population boom and conquer a good amount of territory, especially after the Rhoman-Iranic exhaustion.

Also about assertions about paganism going out......this is a popular trope not evidenced.

From Arabia and the Arabs: From the Bronze Age to the Coming of Islam chapter 6,

View attachment 648708

And before someone makes the Christian = more economic power agreement

The economical advantage of Christianity was so great that the Jews of Yemen worked in tandem with the polytheists to throw the Christians out. The southern nabateans found it so useful that they allowed with the interior tribes to push the encroaching Byzantine armies out repeatedly and politely showed the door to almost every Christian missionary group. Christian trade with Arabia diminished in Arabia after the 480s to the point that the merchants of Hejaz and Arabia were turning towards Persia, India and Africa according to the Book of Himyars. All in all not a guarantee and not at all Christian determinism like what many in this thread believe. In fact the book of Himyars mentions that Christian traders and political power in Arabia was minuscule in comparison to the economic power wileded by the iranics Indians and Africans. Again, Christianity is a possibility but it isn't determined not as likely as you make it out to be.

***

To answer your question directly without quoting myself from another thread, the Levant remains Judeo-Christian, Yemen remains Jewish majority, whilst the rest of Arabia other than Iran and Iraq remains Polytheistic as the religion started to conslidate itself. Also Christianity never had a hold in Central Asia. It was dominantaly Zoroastrian and Buddhist, and remained so until the 11th century, showing its resilience. Also......

This is a very large stereotype and in conflict with general consensus. Religious Extremism existed in Europe, many times in greater amounts and numbers before the advent of Islam. The Fatimids, Ottomans before the 1800s, and Mamluks were known to be rather liberal empires for their time as well. This is a rather demeaning statement to Islam and all of its adherents, a vast majority of whom are not extremists.

I agree the arabian paganism even if judiaisim and christianity win out in the north ( were it was already dominant ) and or yemen ( aksum here can invade agian with no caliphate ) it would probably survive in the njad or other areas for centuries

Expanding Arabian paganism is Less likely for one with out been united different tribes or confederations at different times and settling
For example a confederation of arabs pushed to syria in 640s or 650s give the byzantine empire much more time to recover and potentially deal with them

Also unlike the Muslims Wich directly and indirectly did thing to avoid assimilation it's still took centuries to convert them and that was because they strook at a perfect time
So the alt conquest may not even happen or may not even last as long to convert the People.

 

[Silver01]

Without the conversion of the Middle East to Islam, Greek High Culture would have probably never declined. It might in fact be held to the gold standard in TTL, alongside Chinese. Hellenization would actually probably increase with parts of the Middle East and Egypt becoming monolingualy Greek speaking. Why Egypt? The Greeks had been entrenched there since the Ptolemaic Dynasty and the Greeks are just as capable of accomplishing the same kind of top-down assimilation there that the Arabs were able to do in OTL. The hundreds of millions of Greek speakers in this timeline would probably look at ours in bewilderment.

Yeah but also no I don't think egypt would become fully a greek speaking place
Maybe parts of the northern levant yes but fully adopting Greek would most likely be seen as been a chalcedonian which the copts and many syrians were not

 

[Silver01]

If a world doesn't have an Islamic Golden Age I would think it would be a worse place to live; possible the sciences and mathematics would not be as advanced as it is now.

Paper may have reached Europe at a later date thus stalling the progress of mass literature.

Well it would depend how much can the byzantine and alt Persian empire can do you would need some peace there to make one of them if not both invest in that as for paper even if we believe that this was a result of the battle of talas there is still the possibilities of the persians defeating the tang and taking prisoners

 

[A Piece of History]

Without the Arab invasions, Spanish history is changed beyond recognition, since it was the Reconquista that created the nation we know of as Spain. Before the Moors, the Visigoths were subject to constant infighting between the king and the aristocracy. If this infighting continues, then the Franks could easily move into Spain farther than in OTL.

Also, Jews in general have a harsher time in Spain since they were subjected to intense persecution by the Visigothic kings and depending on who controls Arabia or North Africa in this timeline, they might not have a safe harbour. Depending on who is sitting on the Frankish throne, they might have a safe harbour in Francia and they might help the Franks topple whatever Visigothic monarch is oppressing them, like how they helped the Moors and were rewarded with religious tolerance in exchange for a jaziya tax.

 

[kasumigenx]

Without the Arab invasions, Spanish history is changed beyond recognition, since it was the Reconquista that created the nation we know of as Spain. Before the Moors, the Visigoths were subject to constant infighting between the king and the aristocracy. If this infighting continues, then the Franks could easily move into Spain farther than in OTL.

Also, Jews in general have a harsher time in Spain since they were subjected to intense persecution by the Visigothic kings and depending on who controls Arabia or North Africa in this timeline, they might not have a safe harbour. Depending on who is sitting on the Frankish throne, they might have a safe harbour in Francia and they might help the Franks topple whatever Visigothic monarch is oppressing them, like how they helped the Moors and were rewarded with religious tolerance in exchange for a jaziya tax.

The Franks could restore the WRE in their dynasty.

 

[Silver01]

Without the Arab invasions, Spanish history is changed beyond recognition, since it was the Reconquista that created the nation we know of as Spain. Before the Moors, the Visigoths were subject to constant infighting between the king and the aristocracy. If this infighting continues, then the Franks could easily move into Spain farther than in OTL.

Also, Jews in general have a harsher time in Spain since they were subjected to intense persecution by the Visigothic kings and depending on who controls Arabia or North Africa in this timeline, they might not have a safe harbour. Depending on who is sitting on the Frankish throne, they might have a safe harbour in Francia and they might help the Franks topple whatever Visigothic monarch is oppressing them, like how they helped the Moors and were rewarded with religious tolerance in exchange for a jaziya tax.

i also said before and even used the idea that the berbers could have also invaded spain in a np islam scenario after all the muslims invaded with a small raiding force do the civil war there

 

[A Piece of History]

The Franks could restore the WRE in their dynasty.

You mean like a early version of the Holy Roman Empire?

 

[Abd ar-Rahman II]

i also said before and even used the idea that the berbers could have also invaded spain in a np islam scenario after all the muslims invaded with a small raiding force do the civil war there

Berbers seem too divided to manage to do that to the same extent of the Umayyad

 

[Silver01]

Berbers seem too divided to manage to do that to the same extent of the Umayyad

well there is the case that you only need one berber tribe or coalation to do it to conquer the whole or at least a major chunk if spain , as the berbers were consolidaditing before islam came here they dont waste decades resting them rather its decades of them consolidating and figthing in favor or against the byzantines ,or both especially if something like gregorys rebellion occurs in the alt timeline since the major winers if the byzantine crush it would most likely be some berber tribes .

as for the conquest of hispania if something like roderic civil war occur ( i mean for the later half of the 7th century the visiogthic kingdom had been declining) and if we use the sources for guadalete a small force could win after all guadalete was mostly due to the betrayal of the visigothic vassals rather than Tactical strategies of the muslims nor were many recources or men were used to win unlike say something like the siege of constantinople.

 

[Socrates]

If a world doesn't have an Islamic Golden Age I would think it would be a worse place to live; possible the sciences and mathematics would not be as advanced as it is now.

Paper may have reached Europe at a later date thus stalling the progress of mass literature.

Was the Islamic golden age any more rapid in advancement than any other stable empire? I know it is in the mythology, but I think that is more a comparison to other periods in Middle Eastern/Islamic history rather than comparison to other cultures. If there was no Caliphate, we could have seen similar levels of advancement under Zoroastrian or Roman Mesopitamia.

 

[Socrates]

The Franks could restore the WRE in their dynasty.

They couldn't keep together Gaul, Germany and Italy in our timeline. Why would adding Spain to the mix help things?

 

[Silver01]

They couldn't keep together Gaul, Germany and Italy in our timeline. Why would adding Spain to the mix help things?

if anything i think frankish invasion makes spain even more divided than the otl

 

[Abd ar-Rahman II]

well there is the case that you only need one berber tribe or coalation to do it to conquer the whole or at least a major chunk if spain , as the berbers were consolidaditing before islam

They were ? I know there were remnants of the Mauro-Roman kingdom in Algeria and Tunisia ( not sure if they were consolidating and what exactly is mean by that ) but were the any Berber entity in modern Morocco that could lead such an endeavor especially since their position in Africa would be far less secure than the Umayyad they would have rival tribe to worry about at home with the possibility of traitor and rebel if they spend to much time in Iberia . Also there the natural problem of having a domain extending of both side of the strait Almohads and Almoravids both had problems with that and they had far more ressource than the Berber tribe then , still what will help ( for the conquest at least) is the wisigoth are in a big civil war and generally on the decline .

as for the conquest of hispania if something like roderic civil war occur ( i mean for the later half of the 7th century the visiogthic kingdom had been declining) and if we use the sources for guadalete a small force could win after all guadalete was mostly due to the betrayal of the visigothic vassals rather than Tactical strategies of the muslims nor were many recources or men were used to win unlike say something like the siege of constantinople.

Honestly there seem to be a bit debate about the numbers of man involved in the conquest of Iberia some going to relatively bigger numbers . but yeah the infighting of the wisigoth would be main advantage of anybody trying to invade the peninsula .
Honestly I don’t think they can really manage to take the whole peninsula place like Zaragoza and other « northern city would probably end out of their reach) .