What would a Protestant/Reformed Holy Roman Emperor look like?

I realize how unlikely a Protestant Holy Roman Emperor is, but if a Protestant majority succeeded in seating a Protestant HRE at some point between 1520-1648 what would it look like.

Specifically I am wondering what the religious foundation for his claim would be without the Papal backing a Catholic Emperor entails. Would it even continue as a "Holy Roman Empire" or would the depictions and surrounding theological and ideological framework change?

The position of HRE had been so bound up with Catholic rethoric that I am having difficulties imagining what it would look like. I think that there might be some of the later absolutist justifications which could work in a case like this, but how exactly would it be framed.

For the moment please ignore the likely rebellions and deposal that could well follow, for 5he moment I am just interested in the underlying justifications.

We can get into all the other stuff at a later point.
 
I think you'd more likely get a Protestant referrimg to himself as "King of the Germans" or "German Emperor" rather than anything "Roman". The justification for the "Roman" part of the title is a direct reference to the Pope. Legally speaking, the Imperial Election only made someone King and the King wouldn't become Emperor until granted that title by the Pope so I see "King of the Germans" or "King of Germany" as the more likely title. It was one of the titles used by the HREmperor after all....
 
I suppose it's possible any Protestant Emperor is going to parallel Anglicanism and adopt a kind of Fideo Defensor magisterial governance over the Church(es) in the Empire. Dropping the "Roman" part may help.
It depends on the Calvinist and Lutheran views on church hierarchy and secular authority.
 
I think you'd more likely get a Protestant referrimg to himself as "King of the Germans" or "German Emperor" rather than anything "Roman". The justification for the "Roman" part of the title is a direct reference to the Pope. Legally speaking, the Imperial Election only made someone King and the King wouldn't become Emperor until granted that title by the Pope so I see "King of the Germans" or "King of Germany" as the more likely title. It was one of the titles used by the HREmperor after all....
More strictly it was coronation by the Pope that conferred the title. After Charles V any Emperor technically used the term Emperor Elect before papal coronation, ie most of them.
No reason this doesn't happen in this situation too.
 
I think you'd more likely get a Protestant referrimg to himself as "King of the Germans" or "German Emperor" rather than anything "Roman". The justification for the "Roman" part of the title is a direct reference to the Pope. Legally speaking, the Imperial Election only made someone King and the King wouldn't become Emperor until granted that title by the Pope so I see "King of the Germans" or "King of Germany" as the more likely title. It was one of the titles used by the HREmperor after all....

I was wondering if a protestant Emperor, particularly early on during the reformation, could become the focal point for the reformation. It might even be possible for a Holy Roman Emperor to merge the position of Head of a protestant church with the imperial title. If the Reformation isn't quite as fractured as OTL that might work as a replacement for the various magisterial reformations to some degree or other.

I suppose it's possible any Protestant Emperor is going to parallel Anglicanism and adopt a kind of Fideo Defensor magisterial governance over the Church(es) in the Empire. Dropping the "Roman" part may help.
It depends on the Calvinist and Lutheran views on church hierarchy and secular authority.

More strictly it was coronation by the Pope that conferred the title. After Charles V any Emperor technically used the term Emperor Elect before papal coronation, ie most of them.
No reason this doesn't happen in this situation too.

What if an Emperor crowned himself, ala Napoleon, and claimed divine sanction directly from god - going around the Pope in the process. Interestingly there was significant support for the Emperor in the HRE until Charles came down clearly against Luther.

Would it be possible to piece together some form of biblical foundation for a combined Head of Church-Emperor?
 
For this to happen it would likely mean a very different France. France would have to be a lot weaker in this tl. If that is the case you'd likely see a coup in the Catholic Church. The church is a tough beast. Contrary to popular belief the Church lasted this long by being able to evolve. In a scenario like this the Church would not last long. The Pope and all those not willing to convert would be killed long before the Protestant armies reached Rome. After that is anyone's guess. The Church will never regain the power lost, but the Church would be united again
 
Okay, until Napoleon, you're not going to get an "Emperor" from the Protestants. Why? Smacks of popery and paganism, two things they're against. Protestantism is also a grassroots type movement with a emphasis on a one-on-one relationship with God without the intervention of anyone else (confessions, absolutions, etc).
 
If the Austrian Habsburgs convert and keep support from four electors, they will call themselves emperor, but the Pope will likely crown a Anti-Emperor.
 
What if an Emperor crowned himself, ala Napoleon, and claimed divine sanction directly from god - going around the Pope in the process. Interestingly there was significant support for the Emperor in the HRE until Charles came down clearly against Luther.

Would it be possible to piece together some form of biblical foundation for a combined Head of Church-Emperor?
I think the minimal any Protestant Emperor-elect will need is backing from the Protestant Churches.
He'll probably try to copy Henry and claim supremacy but may have to settle for backing some sort of clerical council to get wider appeal. He'd have to be anti-papal but may not go far enough to appease the more anti-hierarchical protestant churches.
How anti-hierarchical was Lutheranism at this time?
 
What if an Emperor crowned himself, ala Napoleon, and claimed divine sanction directly from god - going around the Pope in the process. Interestingly there was significant support for the Emperor in the HRE until Charles came down clearly against Luther.

Would it be possible to piece together some form of biblical foundation for a combined Head of Church-Emperor?

Wilhelm I of Germany did that for his Prussian coronation "I receive this crown from God alone, and no other!" He declared.

As to the Head of Church-Emperor, wasn't that sort of what the whole caesaropapism thing was all about? And how the Byzantines did it?

Regarding the "Roman" part of the title, they could probably easily get around that by saying that the Julio-Claudians, Flavians, Antonines etc were "Roman Emperors" long before Constantine. And that the Holy implied Christian, not Catholic.
 
If the Austrian Habsburgs convert and keep support from four electors, they will call themselves emperor, but the Pope will likely crown a Anti-Emperor.

I don't doubt for a moment that the Pope would do everything in his power to oppose a protestant Emperor, even going so far as to appoint an Anti-King. However, the question is if that wouldn't help unite the Empire in the face of external "attack". The Emperor would be able to refer back to the Investiture Crisis and all of the conflicts between the Pope and Emperor in the past should help to normalize a Protestant emperor.

I think the minimal any Protestant Emperor-elect will need is backing from the Protestant Churches.
He'll probably try to copy Henry and claim supremacy but may have to settle for backing some sort of clerical council to get wider appeal. He'd have to be anti-papal but may not go far enough to appease the more anti-hierarchical protestant churches.
How anti-hierarchical was Lutheranism at this time?

To my understanding there isn't much anti-hierarchical about Lutheranism, and it actively supported the rule of princes over the people. Luther was horrified by the more populist interpretation of his message that triggered the German Peasants' Revolt, with him actually penning a pamphlet calling for their extermination and he lauded the efforts of the Princes in putting down the revolters. Anabaptism wouldn't work as a theological foundation, but I don't see why any of the Magesterial Reformers (Luther, Zwingli and Calvin and their respective supporters are the main ones) would be opposed to Caesaropapism. In some ways that is exactly what happened in places like Denmark and the northern German states, the rulers became heads of their churches. My question had more to do with whether it would work at an Imperial level.

Wilhelm I of Germany did that for his Prussian coronation "I receive this crown from God alone, and no other!" He declared.

As to the Head of Church-Emperor, wasn't that sort of what the whole caesaropapism thing was all about? And how the Byzantines did it?

Regarding the "Roman" part of the title, they could probably easily get around that by saying that the Julio-Claudians, Flavians, Antonines etc were "Roman Emperors" long before Constantine. And that the Holy implied Christian, not Catholic.

I think that there is enough legitimacy in being able to claim a stately lineage reaching back to the Roman Empire that if there is any way of retaining it, the Emperor would do so. It is why I have a hard time imagining anyone willingly changing title. As Holy Roman Emperor, he would theoretically be soverign over all of Christendom. That is a hell of a legacy to give up.

The only problem lies with which group of Protestants the Emperor belongs to and whether he can gain a broader base of support. There were so many different clashes over the Reformist message that it becomes difficult to keep track of it, but one of the fundamental ones in this case would be whether you look at the pre- or post-Constantine Christian Church as being the ideal.
 
How much of the empire are we talking about here? At a point the reformers would be the majority and manage to get through their desired reforms. Though in this case, it might mean devolving power over bishops to dukes and such. Whatever the case, it should have interesting effects with both the Dutch and Swiss.
 
(on mobile right now, will post extended answer in the morning).

The idea of a non-Catholic HRE is by its very nature impossible - it violates the very ideological construct of the Empire. Firstly, before I go on, I am obliged to recommend the book "Heart of Europe" to anyone interested in learning about the HRE (and to some extent, about how medieval and early modern politics actually opetated&.

The book begins with a deconstruction of the name "Holy Romam Empire" - and his discussion of it really should be read by everyone on this board. The holy element is often underplayed in discussions about the HRE, and even medieval Europe as a whole. All too often, we try to rationalize medieval politics by distorting it to fit our modern mindset of politics - that is, our idea that economic and political factors are what drove leaders, not ideas or symbolism.

The emperors certainly didn't want to split with the pope, even during the longstanding conflicts in the high middle ages. The Empire was idealized as the protector of the mortal world, just as the pope was the protectior of the spiritual. Religion was also taken far more seriously by people than is often said; religious actions were not some political scheme to garner legitimacy. They were performed because it was their moral duty to proform them.

The biggest factor for this discussion, tho, is the Roman and imperial aspect of the title. Whereas we use the term empire rather broadly today, in the middle ages the had a very specific meaning: to be Imperial is synonymous with being Roman. This was built out of both nostalgia for Rome and out of biblical beliefs. Specifically, the biblical idea of the "4 empires" (Babalon, Assyria, Persia, Roman), and the integration of Rome into the description of the second coming. To have there be any other empire was absurd - there simply couldn't exist any new empire other than the romans.

The notion of an empire was also associated with it being universal. The HRE was built upon the idea of it being something other than the rest of Europe's kingdoms - the Empire held political superiority over all of Christiandom. That's also part of the reason you didn't see the Empire take extreme efforts to centralize- they didn't see it as something that needed to be done.

Protestants was simply incompatible with the idea that the Empire is universal, Roman, and imperial. Even if a protestant became emperor, I'd image he would have to conform to much of the catholic nature of his empire. You'd essentially have a demi-catholic, less legitimate, and likely more unpopular king of the Germans.
 

ReenX

Banned
HRE believed it represented christendom. I see no reason why that wouldn't continue, as far as they believe it was the Catholics that ruined and subverted Christ's message and not them. Beside that Empire, even though it had it's fault was a general benefit to those under it, and protestant pronces would strive to keep it going, but manage it themselves.

Have the Turks be less of a threat capable of rallying support behind the habsburgs, and civil wars over rule of the empire are almost a guarantee. The greatest obstacle to overcome is that Habsburgs were in effect protecting Christendom, and that is a huge risk to undermine.

By the time Turks stopped being a threat in our world the HRE lost in its value and relugious situation was settled.

One of the protestand princes would be chosen, though I believe some Catholic electors may be kept to appease that religious group. That depends though on ferocity of fighting and clarity of victory. A fierce war that ends in Catholic forces clearly crushed might result in most if not all electors being protestant.

Brandenburg/Prussia, Saxony, Hesse might be main contenders. I doubt the title would be hereditary, princes might insist on ruler election after death of an emperor, an election with more of a bite than confirming a Habsburg as has been the case before

End result might be a more unified German world, early German unification, earlier Dutch independence and protestantism being a dominant religion in central Europe
 
(on mobile right now, will post extended answer in the morning).

The idea of a non-Catholic HRE is by its very nature impossible - it violates the very ideological construct of the Empire. Firstly, before I go on, I am obliged to recommend the book "Heart of Europe" to anyone interested in learning about the HRE (and to some extent, about how medieval and early modern politics actually opetated&.

The book begins with a deconstruction of the name "Holy Romam Empire" - and his discussion of it really should be read by everyone on this board. The holy element is often underplayed in discussions about the HRE, and even medieval Europe as a whole. All too often, we try to rationalize medieval politics by distorting it to fit our modern mindset of politics - that is, our idea that economic and political factors are what drove leaders, not ideas or symbolism.

The emperors certainly didn't want to split with the pope, even during the longstanding conflicts in the high middle ages. The Empire was idealized as the protector of the mortal world, just as the pope was the protectior of the spiritual. Religion was also taken far more seriously by people than is often said; religious actions were not some political scheme to garner legitimacy. They were performed because it was their moral duty to proform them.

The biggest factor for this discussion, tho, is the Roman and imperial aspect of the title. Whereas we use the term empire rather broadly today, in the middle ages the had a very specific meaning: to be Imperial is synonymous with being Roman. This was built out of both nostalgia for Rome and out of biblical beliefs. Specifically, the biblical idea of the "4 empires" (Babalon, Assyria, Persia, Roman), and the integration of Rome into the description of the second coming. To have there be any other empire was absurd - there simply couldn't exist any new empire other than the romans.

The notion of an empire was also associated with it being universal. The HRE was built upon the idea of it being something other than the rest of Europe's kingdoms - the Empire held political superiority over all of Christiandom. That's also part of the reason you didn't see the Empire take extreme efforts to centralize- they didn't see it as something that needed to be done.

Protestants was simply incompatible with the idea that the Empire is universal, Roman, and imperial. Even if a protestant became emperor, I'd image he would have to conform to much of the catholic nature of his empire. You'd essentially have a demi-catholic, less legitimate, and likely more unpopular king of the Germans.

But we're talking about 16th and 17th Europe, not the middle ages. By the time there was even a possibility of a majority of the electors becoming Protestant, the conception of the HRE as universal was a thing of the past.
 
A Protestant king of the Romans would seek to issue a new Golden Bull (Reform Bull?( and have the imperial diet approve it. And he would try, if he could, to recreate the sort of theological legitimacy Catholic Emperors had through parallel structures, although there's a lot of space for maneuvre here. If he succeeds, then there's a powerful force towards cohesion and against sectarian splintering in Protestantism (and it's also going to become a very German thing, maybe appealing less to other nations).

Chances are, though, that this means an earlier 30yw...
 
The OTL elections in that time period were:
1531 - Ferdinand I
1562 - Maximilian II
1575 - Rudolf II
1612 - Matthias
1619 - Ferdinand II
1636 - Ferdinand III

Which of these was closest to Habsburg losing the election to a Protestant emperor (most prominent Protestant prince probably Saxony)?
 
A ever so slight problem with choosing one from their ranks (who wasn't a Habsburg) might be the crabpot nature of the German electors. The Wettins and the Hohenzollerns disliked each other (Friedrich the Wise supported Luther for political reasons, against Albrecht, archbishop of Mainz who was a Hohenzollern). The two branches of the house of Wittelsbach (Pfalz and Bavaria) weren't each other's greatest fans. And even when they DID get a Protestant king of Bohemia in the hopes of breaking the Habsburg hegemon of the imperial title, the majority still voted for a Habsburg anyway (even the Protestant king of Bohemia did, dammit! They elected him as a rival and here he was acting like a vassal). Plus, the Habsburgs ruling Hungary - the bulwark against theTurks- and Spain - sort of made them the best candidates to elect for political, if not religious reasons.

That said, a Protestant Habsburg Holy Roman Emperor might be fun. Hungary, Austria and Bohemia were reasonably Protestant until the 30YW IIRC, (Imperial line stays Catholic, Spaniah line stays Catholic, maybe a third Bohemian-Hungarian line goes Protestant-lite and they get elected king of the Germans when the imperial branch goes extinct). So my question is, why DIDN'T a branch of the Habsburgs go Protestant?
 
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How much of the empire are we talking about here? At a point the reformers would be the majority and manage to get through their desired reforms. Though in this case, it might mean devolving power over bishops to dukes and such. Whatever the case, it should have interesting effects with both the Dutch and Swiss.

Protestantism almost overran the Habsburg lands in the period leading up to the 30 years' war (It was one of the reasons for the Habsburg crackdown that started the war) and with a Protestant Emperor sponsoring the push Reformist beliefs should be able to reach far into society.

(on mobile right now, will post extended answer in the morning).

The idea of a non-Catholic HRE is by its very nature impossible - it violates the very ideological construct of the Empire. Firstly, before I go on, I am obliged to recommend the book "Heart of Europe" to anyone interested in learning about the HRE (and to some extent, about how medieval and early modern politics actually opetated&.

The book begins with a deconstruction of the name "Holy Romam Empire" - and his discussion of it really should be read by everyone on this board. The holy element is often underplayed in discussions about the HRE, and even medieval Europe as a whole. All too often, we try to rationalize medieval politics by distorting it to fit our modern mindset of politics - that is, our idea that economic and political factors are what drove leaders, not ideas or symbolism.

The emperors certainly didn't want to split with the pope, even during the longstanding conflicts in the high middle ages. The Empire was idealized as the protector of the mortal world, just as the pope was the protectior of the spiritual. Religion was also taken far more seriously by people than is often said; religious actions were not some political scheme to garner legitimacy. They were performed because it was their moral duty to proform them.

The biggest factor for this discussion, tho, is the Roman and imperial aspect of the title. Whereas we use the term empire rather broadly today, in the middle ages the had a very specific meaning: to be Imperial is synonymous with being Roman. This was built out of both nostalgia for Rome and out of biblical beliefs. Specifically, the biblical idea of the "4 empires" (Babalon, Assyria, Persia, Roman), and the integration of Rome into the description of the second coming. To have there be any other empire was absurd - there simply couldn't exist any new empire other than the romans.

The notion of an empire was also associated with it being universal. The HRE was built upon the idea of it being something other than the rest of Europe's kingdoms - the Empire held political superiority over all of Christiandom. That's also part of the reason you didn't see the Empire take extreme efforts to centralize- they didn't see it as something that needed to be done.

Protestants was simply incompatible with the idea that the Empire is universal, Roman, and imperial. Even if a protestant became emperor, I'd image he would have to conform to much of the catholic nature of his empire. You'd essentially have a demi-catholic, less legitimate, and likely more unpopular king of the Germans.

The point of this exercise is to see if we can find a way of changing that ideological construction in a way that justifies Protestant leadership of the Empire. The Empire can continue as the idealized protector of the world, simply joining the spiritual defense to its list of tasks. If you believe that the Pope is the Anti-christ (which the protestants largely claimed) then you need to find some way of restoring Christian control over the Empire. You can't leave the "Devil" in control of the world's defenses, either spiritually or physically.

You can still have a protestant ruler claiming a to be a universal ruler, that part of the bible was used to justify the more absolutist regimes in protestant lands later on.

The integration of Rome into the second coming came as part of the reforms associated with the early Ecumenical Councils, which a range of protestants dismiss as being against the beliefs of the early Church which they viewed as having been corrupted by Imperial involvement.

HRE believed it represented christendom. I see no reason why that wouldn't continue, as far as they believe it was the Catholics that ruined and subverted Christ's message and not them. Beside that Empire, even though it had it's fault was a general benefit to those under it, and protestant pronces would strive to keep it going, but manage it themselves.

Have the Turks be less of a threat capable of rallying support behind the habsburgs, and civil wars over rule of the empire are almost a guarantee. The greatest obstacle to overcome is that Habsburgs were in effect protecting Christendom, and that is a huge risk to undermine.

By the time Turks stopped being a threat in our world the HRE lost in its value and relugious situation was settled.

One of the protestand princes would be chosen, though I believe some Catholic electors may be kept to appease that religious group. That depends though on ferocity of fighting and clarity of victory. A fierce war that ends in Catholic forces clearly crushed might result in most if not all electors being protestant.

Brandenburg/Prussia, Saxony, Hesse might be main contenders. I doubt the title would be hereditary, princes might insist on ruler election after death of an emperor, an election with more of a bite than confirming a Habsburg as has been the case before

End result might be a more unified German world, early German unification, earlier Dutch independence and protestantism being a dominant religion in central Europe

If we are prior to or around the 1530s-1540s then the definitions of protestantism would still be fluid enough to mold in any one direction.

But we're talking about 16th and 17th Europe, not the middle ages. By the time there was even a possibility of a majority of the electors becoming Protestant, the conception of the HRE as universal was a thing of the past.

There was still a significant belief in the HRE as a universal empire to my understanding, at least for the first half of the 16th century or so, and there is no reason to drop the universal aspect of the Empire at this point. Having the Emperor claim to speak on behalf of "all true christians" would work as a powerful centralizing force across the Protestant movements. All of this really depends on the Emperor of course.

A Protestant king of the Romans would seek to issue a new Golden Bull (Reform Bull?( and have the imperial diet approve it. And he would try, if he could, to recreate the sort of theological legitimacy Catholic Emperors had through parallel structures, although there's a lot of space for maneuvre here. If he succeeds, then there's a powerful force towards cohesion and against sectarian splintering in Protestantism (and it's also going to become a very German thing, maybe appealing less to other nations).

Chances are, though, that this means an earlier 30yw...

I hadn't considered the way a Bull could be used to legitimize his reign, certainly an interesting concept. but I agree that this would definitely result in conflict much earlier on.

The OTL elections in that time period were:
1531 - Ferdinand I
1562 - Maximilian II
1575 - Rudolf II
1612 - Matthias
1619 - Ferdinand II
1636 - Ferdinand III

Which of these was closest to Habsburg losing the election to a Protestant emperor (most prominent Protestant prince probably Saxony)?

I honestly don't know, I think that Matthias and Charles in 1519 were probably the most contentious and where the Habsburgs came closest to losing (the others, had some of this as well iirc but don't have it off the top of my head).

A ever so slight problem with choosing one from their ranks (who wasn't a Habsburg) might be the crabpot nature of the German electors. The Wettins and the Hohenzollerns disliked each other (Friedrich the Wise supported Luther for political reasons, against Albrecht, archbishop of Mainz who was a Hohenzollern). The two branches of the house of Wittelsbach (Pfalz and Bavaria) weren't each other's greatest fans. And even when they DID get a Protestant king of Bohemia in the hopes of breaking the Habsburg hegemon of the imperial title, the majority still voted for a Habsburg anyway (even the Protestant king of Bohemia did, dammit! They elected him as a rival and here he was acting like a vassal). Plus, the Habsburgs ruling Hungary - the bulwark against theTurks- and Spain - sort of made them the best candidates to elect for political, if not religious reasons.

That said, a Protestant Habsburg Holy Roman Emperor might be fun. Hungary, Austria and Bohemia were reasonably Protestant until the 30YW IIRC, (Imperial line stays Catholic, Spaniah line stays Catholic, maybe a third Bohemian-Hungarian line goes Protestant-lite and they get elected king of the Germans when the imperial branch goes extinct). So my question is, why DIDN'T a branch of the Habsburgs go Protestant?

Is there any way of getting Friedrich and Albrecht to support a similar candidate? I would assume that the secularization possibility for Mainz would instantly draw Hohenzollern interest. The Pfalz Wittelsbachs were the electors for most of this period, so they would be the most important figure to consider of the two branches at least for the election.

There were branches early on who flirted with Protestantism, probably most notably Isabella of Austria and her husband Christian II of Denmark, though Christian later turned his back on it. Further, I read somewhere that Joanna "the Mad" had significant interest in protestant teachings, one of several reasonns she was kept from power. There are others, but I can't quite remember who. Most of them flirted with Protestantism, but I think it was exceedingly rare for any of them to actually convert.
 
Male caucasian, 5'7"-5'9", thin, darkish hair and eyes, probably not the best looking guy in the room.

Also, being a Protestant, he doesn't know (or want to know) how to throw a kegger like the Catholics, doesn't dance and his wife was selected for her 'personal virtues' rather than her 'family connections'. Oh, and music isn't high on his list of things to do to entertain, goes for theology debate instead on different points of scripture.

Sorry, couldn't resist. It does ask what he looked like....:winkytongue:
 
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