What were the biggest tech and weapon mistakes and missed opportunities of Germany in ww2

First, this is a nation that invented and developed the industry's procedures.

Second, the data is incomplete. Try a snapshot. (Texas) of one year. (Lawyer's pamphlet. It makes for interesting reading for all the ways things can go BOOM.)

It doesn't give any data merely states things that can go wrong. The fact is that if the Germans put oil in salt domes that it is overwhelmingly likely they will have few major problems with it. It is very likely they will have no serious accidents at all, and even then it is overwhelmingly unlikely to be catastrophic.
 
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McPherson

Banned
It doesn't give any data merely states things that can go wrong. The fact is that if the Germans put oil in salt domes that it is overwhelmingly likely they will have few major problems with it. It is very likely they will have no serious accidents at all, and even then it is overwhelmingly unlikely to be catastrophic.
How things go routinely wrong is data.
 
First, this is a nation that invented and developed the industry's procedures.

Second, the data is incomplete. Try a snapshot. (Texas) of one year. (Lawyer's pamphlet. It makes for interesting reading for all the ways things can go BOOM.)
You are using an ambulance chaser lawyer's material as evidence?
Crude does not evaporate the way one thinks it does.
It does actually (almost 40 years in the business as a Chemical Engineer and lately major projects manager)
Which (as others have pointed out) is a gas storage facility. Oil storage facilities tend to be pumped and you don't get such an impressive light show
Salt domes have to have holes. How does one get the oil out?
They are called wells. It's actually quite difficult to damage them directly as they are built to withstand high pressure. Generally they get damaged by secondary explosions or by hydrocarbons leaking through integrity failures in the well itself, The example you gave resulted from an underground failure.

I may agree with you that Germany had a critical blind spot when it came to realistically planning for mechanised warfare - and lack of oil storage was a factor (cf Japan who had far more storage in place pre war in terms of months of supply). To be fair to the Nazis, their logic was that coal in the ground was their oil storage and the Luftwaffe would protect the mines and the synthetic oil plants. But using the salt domes in NW Germany could have kept them in the game for longer if they could have afforded to fill them in the first place. Which is doubtful given the size of the synthetic oil plants prewar and their foreign exchange crisis

But don't stretch the argument too far if it's not your subject.
 
But using the salt domes in NW Germany could have kept them in the game for longer if they could have afforded to fill them in the first place. Which is doubtful given the size of the synthetic oil plants prewar and their foreign exchange crisis
it's wasn't just a lack of money that led to them not having oil.
buying oil to stockpile it for later use was an idea that conflicted with their ideology. and they were very much an group of ideologs
 
And kill three dogs?

Lets remember that all forms of energy production carry risks (as the 1600 killed beneath the waters from the Mohne and Edersee dams found out )
 

McPherson

Banned
And kill three dogs?

Lets remember that all forms of energy production carry risks (as the 1600 killed beneath the waters from the Mohne and Edersee dams found out )
The three dogs are not at issue. The inability to deal with the salt dome properly, IS.

The Dambusters example is not applicable.
 
The three dogs are not at issue. The inability to deal with the salt dome properly, IS.

The Dambusters example is not applicable.
I'm trying to understand your line of thought here - massive increases in oil storage has been put forward as a potential technology that may have mitigated some of the Germans achilles heel in terms of petroleum products.

Your initial response was to suggest that oil storage is dangerous . I tried to illustrate that it is not that dangerous and other forms of energy production carry risks too.

You seem to believe that Germany was incapable of drilling into a salt dome / mine and using it as oil storage because a Texaco drilling engineer in 1980 misinterpreted a set of co-ordinates and drilled into a salt mine from a nearby lake?

As I said above - I don't believe that Germany would have adopted oil storage as a war preparation measure but I fail to see why they could not have?
 

McPherson

Banned
You seem to believe that Germany was incapable of drilling into a salt dome / mine and using it as oil storage because a Texaco drilling engineer in 1980 misinterpreted a set of co-ordinates and drilled into a salt mine from a nearby lake?
Yup. That is precisely what I know. The WWII Germans were actually that incredibly incompetent.
 
Yup. That is precisely what I know. The WWII Germans were actually that incredibly incompetent.
And yet when the Americans were researching the history of salt dome storage for oil products they recognised that Deutsche Erdol AG (DEA) obtained a patent covering the use of solution—mined salt cavities for the storage of crude oil and distillates as early as 1916? https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a066605.pdf

The sons and daughters of those "incredibly incompetent" Germans had salt dome oil storage up and running at least 6 years before the Americans did in 1975.

We can talk about incompetent decisions by a specific person but labelling the entire population of Germany in WW2 as incompetent seems a little OTT?
 

McPherson

Banned
We can talk about incompetent decisions by a specific person but labelling the entire population of Germany in WW2 as incompetent seems a little OTT?
a. They did not succeed in getting salt dome storage up and running when they supposedly had the means. (Supposed capacity is only demonstrated by its existence and use.).
b. They, collectively, botched metallurgy in general, ship armor plate, aircraft alloys, high temperature steels, pyrotechnic fusing, aero engines, electronic systems, railroad management, oil pipeline construction from Rumania to the Reich, aircraft design, submarine design, (subject expert.), civil affairs management, economic policy, labor policy, geo-politics, theory and practice of land warfare, of air warfare, of sea warfare, flunked internal politics 101, geographical first principles (Mackinder vs Mahan.), and got 7 million of themselves killed and they also... lost.

The Japanese flunked on geo-politics, civil affairs and sea warfare and they lost, too, but the rest of that package? They did better on it than the Germans with far fewer resources and means.
 
a. They did not succeed in getting salt dome storage up and running when they supposedly had the means. (Supposed capacity is only demonstrated by its existence and use.).
b. They, collectively, botched metallurgy in general, ship armor plate, aircraft alloys, high temperature steels, pyrotechnic fusing, aero engines, electronic systems, railroad management, oil pipeline construction from Rumania to the Reich, aircraft design, submarine design, (subject expert.), civil affairs management, economic policy, labor policy, geo-politics, theory and practice of land warfare, of air warfare, of sea warfare, flunked internal politics 101, geographical first principles (Mackinder vs Mahan.), and got 7 million of themselves killed and they also... lost.

The Japanese flunked on geo-politics, civil affairs and sea warfare and they lost, too, but the rest of that package? They did better on it than the Germans with far fewer resources and means.
So "Germans" are incompetent because they lost the war?
I'm still not really getting your argument here?

I'm sure you could make an equally impressive list of British and American errors too. But they won so they must have been "competent"?

Rule 101 of business (and usually warfare too) - don't bet against the megacorporations, you may be smarter but they have bigger and deeper pockets.
 

McPherson

Banned
So "Germans" are incompetent because they lost the war?
They fought a war they could not win, but even in the fighting of it, they were incompetent. The devil in the details can be summed up with four choice examples...

a. Use of the railroads. Diverting railroad rolling stock from the logistics of war fighting to mass murdering Nazi defined "under men" was a pan Germanic economic and logistical effort
b. The Luftwaffe qualifies; as it was German wide misused; Pretty Boy Willie and clowns like Jeschonek may be famous names, but when even Adolf Galland does not know what he is doing and makes the RAF look good by comparison, then what the hey?
c. Oil policy and programs.
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d. How much does one know about German coal miners and U-boats? There is a strange connection. 28,000 highly skilled deep shaft coal miners drowned in the North Atlantic, which disrupted German post war coal mining, because the U-boats that they served aboard in WWII as crew were noisy and had defective screws, induction valves, and no radar warning sets or the coal miners were carbon monoxide poisoned by their subs' defective air plants and they were overall hindered in their work by those poor ergonomics laid out death traps. At least 10% of those boats went to sea and died because of shipyard manufacturing defects which did not involve any enemy action which exploited those other known to the Allies defects in the slightest. How many Germans were collectively involved in that effort? Say about a million from ore to sortie? Lots of collective incompetence there.
 
And yet when the Americans were researching the history of salt dome storage for oil products they recognised that Deutsche Erdol AG (DEA) obtained a patent covering the use of solution—mined salt cavities for the storage of crude oil and distillates as early as 1916? https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a066605.pdf

The sons and daughters of those "incredibly incompetent" Germans had salt dome oil storage up and running at least 6 years before the Americans did in 1975.

We can talk about incompetent decisions by a specific person but labelling the entire population of Germany in WW2 as incompetent seems a little OTT?
Patent is not proof that an idea can be implemented (edit: at large scale) with available materials and technology. The 1916 patent date is irrelevant. The 1940 success by the Swedes the report mentions is interesting. The geology for salt dome storage is in the wrong place though from a German war effort point of view - the North German coastal region means giving up defence in depth against bomber attacks coming in off the sea.

Edit:
It occurs to me the Germans could maybe set up fake underground storage facilities, and laugh themselves silly as Bomber Command keep going after them until the rubble of the 'surface facilities' bounces.
 
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McPherson

Banned
I'm sure you could make an equally impressive list of British and American errors too
a. RAF
b. US Army (especially infantry arms programs)
c. USN (torpedoes, ordnance in general, and aircraft especially)

a. Never learned.
b. Tried, but with clowns like Studler? They still botched it.
c. Lesson learned with a vengeance. After Okinawa and the kamikazes; it was Sidewinder, Sparrow, AMRAAM, and the Norway + Raytheon connection, T series => Standard, "Slicks", GUPPY => Nautilus, then Regulus => Polaris=> Poseidon => Trident, Finally got the aircraft carrier concept nailed down and learned how to fight an air campaign.

Even during WWII?

a. Never learned.
b. From the M-2 clown car to the Sherman and KYD in 90 seconds flat artillery (Gladeon Barnes).
c. Mark XVIII electric torpedo, Mark 24 FIDO / Cutie, the BAT, Hellcats and Corsairs for the USNAS, FDCs and CICs, and KYD acoustic torpedoes in general.
 
a. They did not succeed in getting salt dome storage up and running when they supposedly had the means. (Supposed capacity is only demonstrated by its existence and use.).

Where would Germany have set up natural salt dome storage?

b. They, collectively, botched metallurgy in general,

Glod alloys require the right materials - Germany lacked access to many of them, especially after Turkey stopped Chromium exports.

ship armor plate,

See above.

aircraft alloys,

See above.

high temperature steels,

See above.

aero engines,

High-octane fuels never reached the Luftwaffe in significant amounts as they did for the Allies. How much more power can be coaxed from the same piston engines with 100 octane fuel than 85 octane fuel?

electronic systems,

FuG 25 IFF systems, ZG 1229 nightsights, Z3 computers, etc.

railroad management,

Why do you believe this...?

oil pipeline construction from Rumania to the Reich,

Because *that* wouldn't be an automatic target

aircraft design,

Swept-wing aircraft along with most first-gen postwar fighters would like a word.

submarine design, (subject expert.)

They were among the first to incorporate hydrodynamics and sound dampening systems into ship designs (making the tiles stick for the latter proved very difficult though). What are your thoughts on the role that Type XXI submarines had in spurring the GUPPY project along with the designs of Tench, Zulu, Gato, Whiskey, Romeo/Ming, and Balao class submarines?

economic policy,

Speer et al, for better or worse (and sometimes inappropriately), being acknowledged for his ability to keep the German economy running despite constant metallic rain?

labor policy,
On this point we agree.

geo-politics,
If you want to compete on the world stage, go continental or go home.

The Japanese flunked on geo-politics, civil affairs and sea warfare and they lost, too, but the rest of that package? They did better on it than the Germans with far fewer resources and means.

Japan was stopped in her tracks with the destruction of her fleet at Midway. She also had far fewer materials and industrial base than the Allies but was grossly underestimated by them for various reasons. Had she attacked the USSR in winter of 1941 in full force instead of the Allies it is possible the Russians might have been forced to come to the table.

Please stop confusing ethical failures for economic limitations.
 
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McPherson

Banned
Where would Germany have set up natural salt dome storage?
Where they tried and failed.
Good alloys require the right materials - Germany lacked access to many of them, especially after Turkey stopped Chromium exports.
The Japanese found a way to make armor plate without chromium.
See above.
Even with high octane fuels, the DB, Junkers and BMW engines for the same watts output were still about ~200 kg heavier than RR, Bristol, or Pratt equivalents with all the bells and whistles. That cuts into airframe mass. Japanese engines were about 100 kg lighter than the Wally equivalents. That goes into alloy blocks and that means steels.
See above.
High temperature steels were a problem for Japan. They used a substitute (copper) and solved it.
See above.
Same again.
High-octane fuels never reached the Luftwaffe in significant amounts as they did for the Allies. How much more power can be coaxed from the same piston engines with 100 octane fuel than 85 octane fuel?
They do not do the work needed. Goes directly to incompetence.
FuG 25 IFF systems, ZG 1229 nightsights, Z3 computers, etc.
SCR 595 used by the USAAF in Europe and its British (They invented it.) version ARI 5025 was goofproof, simpler and was not as prone to false radar hits because of an amplification failure. The USN already had one of their own, but it was error prone and untrustworthy as the FuG 25 and for exactly the same reasons. Discriminator was prone to false hits.

ZG 1229 night-sights

9c30c6ed7cd0b67207505ce17793be2f.jpg


American Rifleman | A Look Back at the M1 Carbine | Night ...

It worked.
Why do you believe this...?

German Railways and the Holocaust | Holocaust Encyclopedia

Because *that* wouldn't be an automatic target
Why should it be? Does one understand how easy it was for the Russians to camouflage their pipelines across Poland into East Germany and how hard it was for the USAF to map them in the 1950s? Only discovered by accident.
Swept-wing aircraft along with most first-gen postwar fighters would like a word.
Theodore van Karman and "Kelly" Johnson and Ed Heinemann.
They were among the first to incorporate hydrodynamics and sound dampening systems into ship designs (making the tiles stick for the latter proved very difficult though). What are your thoughts on the role that Type XXI submarines had in spurring the GUPPY project along with the designs of Tench, Zulu, Gato, Whiskey, Romeo/Ming, and Balao class submarines?
Rubberized tiles that never stuck, incompetent understanding of the Gulf Stream, ignorance of the thermocline, and the crap Type XXI subs that showed the Americans what not to do with GUPPY? Like build battery cells that could only be serviced by a crewman shuffling along on his belly on a cat-crawl one dropped tool away from a discharge and a chlorine gas release or hydrogen ignition event? Those deathtraps?
Speer et al, for better or worse (and sometimes inappropriately), being acknowledged for his ability to keep the German economy running despite constant metallic rain?
Speer was a liar, a conman, the Fuchida of Germany. How "much" credit or blame depends on a lot of scholarship. But his contribution to the overall incompetence was a lot like Guderian's. The man was a self promoter more than the real deal in true effectiveness like Henry Kaiser or Gladeon Barnes.
On this point we agree.
Okay, so the slave labor and murder factories and incompetent use of available industrially skilled worker manpower hours is an agreement, that the Germans were unable to use human resources properly.
If you want to compete on the world stage, go continental or go home.
Figure out Mahan, do trade trade, not fight fight, or DIE.
Japan was stopped in her tracks with the destruction of her fleet at Midway. She also had far fewer materials and industrial base than the Allies but was grossly underestimated by them for various reasons. Had she attacked the USSR in winter of 1941 in full force instead of the Allies it is possible the Russians might have been forced to come to the table.
Shoot Stalin and then fight on, Rodina. Nothing was going to stop the Berlin Maniac from murdering Russians and other peoples except the Red Army in Berlin. Or a FATMAN dropped on it.
Please stop confusing ethical failures for economic limitations.
If you do not value human beings in general, then African Americans, American women, Mexican Americans, Native Americans from the Sioux and Navajo nations, praise their efforts)... and JAPANESE Americans (really PRAISE these guys.) will be left aside and one limits one's economic efforts in ship-building, generating intelligence, farming, causing the B'Dienst and the Japanese Signals Service to tear their hair out, and in general overall economic activity===> especially in feeding and supplying the Red Army, so those guys can put an end to the Berlin Maniac and his monstrous regime.

That is the moral vision applied to war M79.
 
the crap Type XXI subs that showed the Americans what not to do with GUPPY? Like build battery cells that could only be serviced by a crewman shuffling along on his belly on a cat-crawl one dropped tool away from a discharge and a chlorine gas release or hydrogen ignition event? Those deathtraps?
Those deathtraps which Allied navies consented to use for years after the war was over? Those deathtraps?
 
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