What were the biggest tech and weapon mistakes and missed opportunities of Germany in ww2

[McPherson]

The French navy continued to use a Type XXI until 1967. Clearly, they disagree with your assessment. Your only qualification on this subject is having taken a tour of a Type XXI. [U]The credentials of the navies who actually operated the things clearly are more qualified to judge the subs than you.[/U]

Shrug.

The Nazis' Advanced Type XXI Submarine Was a Giant Mistake

The Type XXI provides several lessons in how technology—while important—doesn’t alone win wars. It’s also a lesson in how the fanatical pursuit of advanced weapons can make winning wars a lot harder.

nationalinterest.org

Read.

Sample:

To put it simply, it wasn’t a war-winning weapon. Worse for Germany, it didn’t really do anything … and arguably hastened the Third Reich’s defeat.

For one, the submarines—only two were ever operational—suffered from several technical problems that forced engineers to work overtime to resolve. The hydraulic torpedo loading systems didn’t work at first. The engines and steering systems were defective. This made the submarines “decidedly less of a threat than originally foreseen,” Jones writes.

Germany largely ironed out these problems. But even if the submarines had worked perfectly at the outset, it’s unlikely they would have had much of an effect on the outcome of the war.

This is because the submarines were tied to a losing strategy. And in 1945, German naval strategy was a hopeless cause.

The Type XXI was a piece of crap.

McP.

 

[RedSword12]

Shrug.

The Nazis' Advanced Type XXI Submarine Was a Giant Mistake

The Type XXI provides several lessons in how technology—while important—doesn’t alone win wars. It’s also a lesson in how the fanatical pursuit of advanced weapons can make winning wars a lot harder.

nationalinterest.org

Read.

Sample:



The Type XXI was a piece of crap.

McP.

Evidently you didn't even bother reading the article before you quoted it. "Germany largely ironed out these problems." By the end they were decidedly not crap. Hence, after the war, why various navies continued to use them. If they were death traps, as you claim, France would not have risked valuable personnel on a "death trap" for decades in a time of peace.

 

[RedSword12]

Shrug.

The Nazis' Advanced Type XXI Submarine Was a Giant Mistake

The Type XXI provides several lessons in how technology—while important—doesn’t alone win wars. It’s also a lesson in how the fanatical pursuit of advanced weapons can make winning wars a lot harder.

nationalinterest.org

Read.

Sample:



The Type XXI was a piece of crap.

McP.

And another thing you failed to notice in the article, which was rather unsubtly spelled out, was that the Type XXI's main problem was that it was too late to change the outcome of the war, and because they were tied to a naval strategy that was not going to work. It was no longer possible to build them in the quantities that would have been necessary to effect any real change in the outcome, and as a result they diverted valuable resources from a war effort that could not afford to waste anything. According to the article, the Type XXI's biggest issue was not from design, but from the class's role in the German war effort. Nowhere is it stated that they were a bad idea because they were deathtraps.

 

[Johnrankins]

And another thing you failed to notice in the article, which was rather unsubtly spelled out, was that the Type XXI's main problem was that it was too late to change the outcome of the war, and because they were tied to a naval strategy that was not going to work. It was no longer possible to build them in the quantities that would have been necessary to effect any real change in the outcome, and as a result they diverted valuable resources from a war effort that could not afford to waste anything. According to the article, the Type XXI's biggest issue was not from design, but from the class's role in the German war effort. Nowhere is it stated that they were a bad idea because they were deathtraps.

Agreed, it was more too little , too late than piece of crap.

 

[M79]

Where they tried and failed.

Answer the question please. Where would Germany have set up natural salt dome storage?

The Japanese found a way to make armor plate without chromium.

Are you referring to Vickers Hardened?

Even with high octane fuels, the DB, Junkers and BMW engines for the same watts output were still about ~200 kg heavier than RR, Bristol, or Pratt equivalents with all the bells and whistles. That cuts into airframe mass. Japanese engines were about 100 kg lighter than the Wally equivalents. That goes into alloy blocks and that means steels.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/44438874?seq=1

High temperature steels were a problem for Japan. They used a substitute (copper) and solved it.

Are you sure they were the ones to devise the solution?

They do not do the work needed. Goes directly to incompetence.

Read your article. Their octane rating was different due to the measurement used. Their quantity was different due to production bottlenecks (lack of production facilities). Neither is a competence question.

SCR 595 used by the USAAF in Europe and its British (They invented it.) version ARI 5025 was goofproof, simpler and was not as prone to false radar hits because of an amplification failure. The USN already had one of their own, but it was error prone and untrustworthy as the FuG 25 and for exactly the same reasons. Discriminator was prone to false hits.

So incompetence does not necessarily correlate with moral reserve? Or are you saying the US was immoral in its war with the Nazis?

ZG 1229 night-sights

American Rifleman | A Look Back at the M1 Carbine | Night ...

It worked.

So you acknowledge that the Nazis were competent in at least one area.

Why should it be? Does one understand how easy it was for the Russians to camouflage their pipelines across Poland into East Germany and how hard it was for the USAF to map them in the 1950s? Only discovered by accident.

So the Nazis are competent at night vision and camoflauge at least.

Theodore van Karman and "Kelly" Johnson and Ed Heinemann.

Adolf Busemann predates them.

Rubberized tiles that never stuck, incompetent understanding of the Gulf Stream, ignorance of the thermocline, and the crap Type XXI subs that showed the Americans what not to do with GUPPY? Like build battery cells that could only be serviced by a crewman shuffling along on his belly on a cat-crawl one dropped tool away from a discharge and a chlorine gas release or hydrogen ignition event? Those deathtraps?

GUPPY class submarines (1946-1960)

From 1946, the USN started to upgrade its numerous wartime Gato class submarines with the Greater Underwater Propulsion Program (GUPPY).

www.naval-encyclopedia.com

Type XXI submarines (et al) inspired GUPPY. Adhesive barriers for anechoic tiling were overcome by war's end but economic bottlenecks and time trade-offs doomed the ideaby that point in the war.
And I'm happy to review your source for the claims about the crawlspace - US Navy officials don't make a habit of placing their commander-in-chief aboard a 'deathtrap'.

1946 Truman - Deutsches U-Boot-Museum

Politische Prominenz auf deutschen U-Booten Kürzlich fiel uns nun erneut ein Bild von U 2513 in die Hände, auf dem der Beweis erbracht wird, dass tatsächlich auch einmal ein US-Präsident auf einen U-Boot der ehemaligen Kriegsmarine mitgefahren ist. Dieses Bild zeigt den damaligen US-Präsident...

dubm.de

Speer was a liar, a conman, the Fuchida of Germany. How "much" credit or blame depends on a lot of scholarship. But his contribution to the overall incompetence was a lot like Guderian's. The man was a self promoter more than the real deal in true effectiveness like Henry Kaiser or Gladeon Barnes.

Not sure Speer and Guderian are what we would call easily comparable, and self-promoter or not he still got a lot of credit for keeping their economy running.

Figure out Mahan, do trade trade, not fight fight, or DIE.

Gotta protect the ships that trade somehow - or just produce more than the enemy can destroy...

Shoot Stalin and then fight on, Rodina. Nothing was going to stop the Berlin Maniac from murdering Russians and other peoples except the Red Army in Berlin. Or a FATMAN dropped on it.

So murdering the leadership of a given country to keep it in the fight even if it is threatened with complete subjugation/annhilation is now a morally acceptable solution to you?

If you do not value human beings in general, then African Americans, American women, Mexican Americans, Native Americans from the Sioux and Navajo nations, praise their efforts)... and JAPANESE Americans (really PRAISE these guys.) will be left aside and one limits one's economic efforts in ship-building, generating intelligence, farming, causing the B'Dienst and the Japanese Signals Service to tear their hair out, and in general overall economic activity===> especially in feeding and supplying the Red Army, so those guys can put an end to the Berlin Maniac and his monstrous regime.

That is the moral vision applied to war M79.

Um, the Red Army was plenty diverse and had women fighting in it as well. Its economic heart beat with teems of peoples of different ethnicities from so many walks of life. Are you now saying that the Soviet Union under Stalin is somehow a moral country for that reason?

 

[RedSword12]

Um, the Red Army was plenty diverse and had women fighting in it as well. Its economic heart beat with teems of peoples of different ethnicities from so many walks of life. Are you now saying that the Soviet Union under Stalin is somehow a moral country for that reason?

The USSR discriminated against a lot of ethnic groups, like the Kazakhs and the Volga Germans. Members of the Red Army who were in the latter were removed from the ranks and sent into labor camps with the rest.

 

[McPherson]

Answer the question please. Where would Germany have set up natural salt dome storage?

Salt dome - Subsurface, Geology, Formation

Salt dome - Subsurface, Geology, Formation: In general, salt structures associated with folds have been linked with the same forces that caused the folding. Salt structures in areas without any apparent folding, however, puzzled early geologists and gave rise to a bewildering series of...

www.britannica.com

Are you referring to Vickers Hardened?

No. I am referring to the Japanese attempt to duplicate VHC without nickel.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/44438874?seq=1

Not a thing contradicts what I noted.

Are you sure they were the ones to devise the solution?

Yes.

Read your article. Their octane rating was different due to the measurement used. Their quantity was different due to production bottlenecks (lack of production facilities). Neither is a competence question.

It goes directly to refining oil.

So incompetence does not necessarily correlate with moral reserve? Or are you saying the US was immoral in its war with the Nazis?

Night vision equipment is no-big deal. The US stuff worked. How did the German stuff do? NTG.

So you acknowledge that the Nazis were competent in at least one area.

See previous comment.

So the Nazis are competent at night vision and camoflauge at least.

Nope.

Adolf Busemann predates them.

We have had this discussion. Karman knew his work, and found it "interesting". Karman worked with him and was CONTEMPORARY at the Max Plank Institute so I would say pre-date is sheer hogwash. Volta Conference 1935? Remember?

GUPPY class submarines (1946-1960)

From 1946, the USN started to upgrade its numerous wartime Gato class submarines with the Greater Underwater Propulsion Program (GUPPY).

www.naval-encyclopedia.com

Type XXI submarines (et al) inspired GUPPY. Adhesive barriers for anechoic tiling were overcome by war's end but economic bottlenecks and time trade-offs doomed the ideaby that point in the war.

The DUTCH inspired the Americans to investigate the snort in 1942. We have also discussed the tile question before. The Germans never solved it. The six boats they tried it out on either were killed, surrendered or own goaled and DIED.

And I'm happy to review your source for the claims about the crawlspace - US Navy officials don't make a habit of placing their commander-in-chief aboard a 'deathtrap'.

1946 Truman - Deutsches U-Boot-Museum

Politische Prominenz auf deutschen U-Booten Kürzlich fiel uns nun erneut ein Bild von U 2513 in die Hände, auf dem der Beweis erbracht wird, dass tatsächlich auch einmal ein US-Präsident auf einen U-Boot der ehemaligen Kriegsmarine mitgefahren ist. Dieses Bild zeigt den damaligen US-Präsident...

dubm.de

Have discussed this. Not going in circles. Moving on.

Not sure Speer and Guderian are what we would call easily comparable, and self-promoter or not he still got a lot of credit for keeping their economy running.

Both were liars and war criminals. So why not compare them with another liar and war criminal, Fuchida?

Gotta protect the ships that trade somehow - or just produce more than the enemy can destroy...

Or fight under the arctic ice cap; Zulu versus GUPPY. Google it.

So murdering the leadership of a given country to keep it in the fight even if it is threatened with complete subjugation/annhilation is now a morally acceptable solution to you?

Russians shooting Stalin is morally acceptable if it saves 9 million Russian lives. He was a criminal by THEIR laws.

Um, the Red Army was plenty diverse and had women fighting in it as well. Its economic heart beat with teems of peoples of different ethnicities from so many walks of life. Are you now saying that the Soviet Union under Stalin is somehow a moral country for that reason?

Incompetent country. Kazahk Red Army draftees could not even speak Russian. Navajos and Japanese-Americans could speak English. It is immoral not to educate your citizenry so they can function in your society.

 

[RedSword12]

Have discussed this. Not going in circles. Moving on.

So you admit the XXI was not a death trap.

 

[McPherson]

So you admit the XXI was not a death trap.

Not even about the Type XXI being anything but a DEATHTRAP. It was about Truman trusting his navy to know their business.

 

[McPherson]

And another thing you failed to notice in the article, which was rather unsubtly spelled out, was that the Type XXI's main problem was that it was too late to change the outcome of the war, and because they were tied to a naval strategy that was not going to work. It was no longer possible to build them in the quantities that would have been necessary to effect any real change in the outcome, and as a result they diverted valuable resources from a war effort that could not afford to waste anything. According to the article, the Type XXI's biggest issue was not from design, but from the class's role in the German war effort. Nowhere is it stated that they were a bad idea because they were deathtraps.

Two damaged by German submarine type XXI and IX-B in dry ...

Was 'behind the the keel plate' of a WWII-era German ...

An engineer would look at that horror show and tear his hair out.

 

[RedSword12]

Not even about the Type XXI being anything but a DEATHTRAP. It was about Truman trusting his navy to know their business.

The Type XXI was NOT a deathtrap! This is clearly bad argumentation on your part, since the only real evidence you have produced is an inconvenient access shaft, and even the value of that testimony is questionable.

Far, far more evidence points to you being wrong on all counts.
1. The president was allowed to go on board for a demonstration dive.
2. The XXI was used for decades after the war by navies that had no reason to risk the lives of well-trained submariners in XXI's unless they WERE NOT death traps.
3. The article you cited as evidence for the XXI being crap says very little about the technical issues of the XXI (and also does not mention issues which would make the submarine a death trap), instead noting that most of the issues were essentially fixed by the war's end, and that the reason why the XXI was a bad idea was because it was never going to be enough to change the tide of the war.
4. The only qualification you have in order to claim the XXI was a death trap was a little tour of the Wilhelm Bauer. Compared to the expertise of the navies which INSISTED on using these submarines far longer than they needed to, you are clearly far from qualified to make a valid judgement on the design.

Two damaged by German submarine type XXI and IX-B in dry ...

Was 'behind the the keel plate' of a WWII-era German ...

An engineer would look at that horror show and tear his hair out.

Yet again, ridiculous argumentation. Your "evidence" here for the XXI being a death trap is showing a damaged XXI in a bombed-out dry dock, and a QUORA.COM LINK. Hardly good sourcing. If you were trying to make your case for the XXI being a death trap to any serious academics the way you have so far, you'd be laughed out of the country. What you've consistently demonstrated in this discussion is your contempt for evidence that goes against your narrative. The Type XXI had its flaws, but they were not enough to make it a total death trap. There's a middle ground between calling a sub a death trap, and a Wunderwaffe.

 

[Look More Closely Later]

Seems to me that 'Stockpile (more) oil (before going to war)' is an obvious missed opportunity ...

To achive this, given limited foreign exchnage (before looting half of Europe) strikes me to be the bigger question (POD earlier synthetic production, POD spending less foreign exchange on other thigs, POD get some more credit from American Banks (issue a few more Bonds), POD do more deals with oil suppliers earlier & buy on credit etc. etc.). This is althistory === the Nazi's can pay for it with Handwavium ..

As to where to store all this extra oil, well, that's the least of their problems = 'use salt domes' is just as good an answer as any other ... I would have thought any old disused mine would do the trick, if not then I suppose purpose built underground storage** tanks (for the finished products - gasoline, diesel etc) could be constructed (although no-doubt "some-one" will tell me how impossible it is to store oil products underground in any way what-so-ever without it catching fire or blowing up)

**Without wishing to get into an argument, I woud have thought that underground storage would be a harder to destroy with bombs and lower priority target than, say, the synthetic oil plant or the oil refineries …

Meh. Earthquake bombs. Barnes Wallis. The British have handwavium reserves too, and anything which positively invites the British to back Barnes Wallis earlier than in the original timeline is bad news for those fighting them.

 

[HexWargamer]

Meh. Earthquake bombs. Barnes Wallis. The British have handwavium reserves too, and anything which positively invites the British to back Barnes Wallis earlier than in the original timeline is bad news for those fighting them.

Hope no-one thinks I'm suggesting that underground storage is immune to being bombed ... just harder to find and put out of action than an oil refinary or synthetic oil plant ...

To be fair, it took the USA entry into the war to focus the Brits. on fact that precision bombing of strategic resources (eg oil production) could pay dividends .. and then it was left to the Americans to do it ...

Early war, as we know, the RAF switched to night bombing of cities (because they could not tollerate the losses of day bombing and could not find any target smaller than a city at night) ... by 'Dambusters' time (May 1943) I bet most of the pre-war stockpiles would have been use up and the salt domes (or whaterver) almost empty ..
(plus, dams are behind big lakes of water that are easy enough to find at night ... an underground storage facility (I would contend) is not so easy to find) ...

EDIT by the time the RAF gets around to dropping Tallboys and Grandslams the Nazi's are well on the back foot and on the way down ... dropping such bombs on submarine pens, the Tirpitz and any Nazi facility being constructed eg. the V3 site and V2 launch facility will likley be higher priority than on some now likley empty of it's last drop of oil abandoned mine...

 

[M79]

Salt dome - Subsurface, Geology, Formation

Salt dome - Subsurface, Geology, Formation: In general, salt structures associated with folds have been linked with the same forces that caused the folding. Salt structures in areas without any apparent folding, however, puzzled early geologists and gave rise to a bewildering series of...

www.britannica.com

Interesting - are you referring to specific incidents in pre-war Germany and if so which ones?

No. I am referring to the Japanese attempt to duplicate VHC without nickel.

Yes.

(A) where is a reference to High-temperature steel/gunmetal alloy from the link? and (B) you might want to dig a bit further than a Reddit post

It goes directly to refining oil.

Again, your using some sort of ethical calculus as a substitute for economic limitations. Allied analysis after the war showed German synthetic fuels were just as good as what the Allies were using - just not in nearly the quantity. That's an economic bottleneck.

Night vision equipment is no-big deal. The US stuff worked. How did the German stuff do? NTG.

So as long as you don't think the contribution is significant you have no trouble with Nazis being technically competent. Got it.

See previous comment.

Again, so long as you don't think the contribution is significant you have no trouble with Nazis being technically competent. Either they have the competence to camoflauge their proposed pipelines or they lack it and thus should not proceed with a project that would endanger their oil supplies. Choose.

Nope.

So Nazis assembled functional night vision equipment and had the competence to enact effective camoflauge on par with the USSR of the 1950s but they are now technically incompetent...because you say so?

We have had this discussion. Karman knew his work, and found it "interesting". Karman worked with him and was CONTEMPORARY at the Max Plank Institute so I would say pre-date is sheer hogwash. Volta Conference 1935? Remember?

You are free to say whatever you like, NASA recognizes Busemann as progenitor if the idea. https://history.nasa.gov/SP-468/ch11-3.htm

The DUTCH inspired the Americans to investigate the snort in 1942. We have also discussed the tile question before. The Germans never solved it. The six boats they tried it out on either were killed, surrendered or own goaled and DIED.

Please keep on topic and respond to posts as written. We were not discussing the snorkel, we were discussing GUPPY.

Have discussed this. Not going in circles. Moving on.

So you're unable to give a response. Noted.

Both were liars and war criminals. So why not compare them with another liar and war criminal, Fuchida?

Economics and their effects on Nazi production, McPherson, are worthy topics for your further reading and consideration. Nazis lacked the industrial capacity and often the raw ingredients to manufacture weaponry (especially advanced weaponry/engines/etc.) in quantities needed.

Or fight under the arctic ice cap; Zulu versus GUPPY. Google it.

Type XXI German submarines keep coming up as inspiration for both. Not a coincidence.

Russians shooting Stalin is morally acceptable if it saves 9 million Russian lives. He was a criminal by THEIR laws.

Had the Nazis overrun Russia I shudder to think how many more would have died. And your apparent agreement with my post about your finding the murder of Soviet leadership acceptable to keep the USSR in the war as needed even had Japan invaded from the East and Moscow been threatened with utter annihilation is also noted.

Incompetent country. Kazahk Red Army draftees could not even speak Russian. Navajos and Japanese-Americans could speak English. It is immoral not to educate your citizenry so they can function in your society.

Yet they proved a competent global adversary to the interests of the United States for roughly half a century. Thankfully American interests did not dismiss their capacities so casually, had those in positions of power and influence done so we might be posting in Russian right now.

 

[Derek Pullem]

I think salt domes and oil storage were the suggested technology that same have helped the Nazis overcome some of their issues in mid war (dragging thread back from unwarranted and borderline racially insulting accusations of incompetence against the German people).

Salt dome storage technology is actually relatively simple once you see a need for it. Many of the best sites are in NW Germany close to Emden. They would be exposed to RAF bombing but the actual exposed equipment is relatively cheap and easily rebuilt or it could be hardened a la U boat pens. Won't stop a tallboy or grand slam but neither of those would be able to disrupt the actual oil storage reserves, just the surface facilities.

But as I noted earlier, the Nazis saw no reason to store oil when effectively their coal mines were storing oil and the synthetic fuel plants were processing it. The problem was that the syn plants could not be defended and the same logic would have applied to refineries for stored oil too. Salt domes can be used to store products (avgas etc) but admitting this is defeatist talk!

 

[HexWargamer]

The U-boats can have the snorkel pre-war (no reason to wait until 1940 to capture the Dutch version)
From Wikipeaia :-
1916 == submarine snorkel was designed by James Richardson, an Assistant Manager at Scotts Shipbuilding and Engineering Company, Greenock, Scotland (there's a Patent on this)
1926 == In November 1926 Capt. Pericle Ferretti of the technical corps of the Italian Navy ran tests with a ventilation pipe installed on the submarine H 3. The tests were largely successful, ..
So, at least two lost opportunities ...

 

[HexWargamer]

Oh, and before anyone points out that the British Admiralty would not have shared the 1916 snorkel =
1) The Britich Amiralty 'saw no need for it' (so no special effort to keep it secret)
2) The Germans (or their Versailles breaking U-boat design team working in the Netherlands since 1922) can read Patents just as easily as anyone else ..

 

[thaddeus]

my view has always been the Elektroboote were developed in reverse order, that they should have built the (much) smaller Type XXIII first, it was more within their technical and production capabilities.

they also needed an even smaller mini submarine, maybe the Italian exploits could have motivated them? they later had a good design with the Seeteufel which had tracks that could have somewhat solved the launching issues.

 

[edgeworthy]

The Type XXI was NOT a deathtrap! This is clearly bad argumentation on your part, since the only real evidence you have produced is an inconvenient access shaft, and even the value of that testimony is questionable.

Far, far more evidence points to you being wrong on all counts.
1. The president was allowed to go on board for a demonstration dive.
2. The XXI was used for decades after the war by navies that had no reason to risk the lives of well-trained submariners in XXI's unless they WERE NOT death traps.
3. The article you cited as evidence for the XXI being crap says very little about the technical issues of the XXI (and also does not mention issues which would make the submarine a death trap), instead noting that most of the issues were essentially fixed by the war's end, and that the reason why the XXI was a bad idea was because it was never going to be enough to change the tide of the war.
4. The only qualification you have in order to claim the XXI was a death trap was a little tour of the Wilhelm Bauer. Compared to the expertise of the navies which INSISTED on using these submarines far longer than they needed to, you are clearly far from qualified to make a valid judgement on the design.

Yet again, ridiculous argumentation. Your "evidence" here for the XXI being a death trap is showing a damaged XXI in a bombed-out dry dock, and a QUORA.COM LINK. Hardly good sourcing. If you were trying to make your case for the XXI being a death trap to any serious academics the way you have so far, you'd be laughed out of the country. What you've consistently demonstrated in this discussion is your contempt for evidence that goes against your narrative. The Type XXI had its flaws, but they were not enough to make it a total death trap. There's a middle ground between calling a sub a death trap, and a Wunderwaffe.

Just as a for everyone's information the battery inspection system that a particular poster is seeing as a lethal engineering catastrophe was exactly the same one as used on the Type VII U-Boat.
Was it a bad design, well it was less than ideal.
Was it a design flaw, well it wasn't exactly the best, and it had problems.
Several boats were lost to chlorine gas leaks.
(In one case, U-1206, due to a backed-up toilet)
Although this is not a uniquely German problem. The US Navy has lost Boats in the same way.
(The first USN Submarine lost at sea was due to battery failure)

H-019-3 Navy Non-Combat Submarine Losses

H-Gram 019, Attachment 3 Samuel J. Cox, Director NHHC June 2018

www.history.navy.mil

Does this specifically make a Type XXI a Deathtrap, not really!

 

[phx1138]

a proper 4-engined bomber

This is a common criticism. AIUI, it was understood Germany had a choice: build 4-engined bombers or build enough twins; doing both was impossible, for lack of industrial capacity. So Luftwaffe brass (Wever?) chose twins. In the context of the time, and doctrine, it was a right call.