What: USA dissolves French Empire after liberation of France post WW2

What if the USA dissolved the French Empire after the allied liberation of France from Nazi Germany and its local allies. We know that USA was for the colonies gaining independance. Maybe it could be framed as justice and doing the opposite of the nazis, in France. While in the colonies it could be framed as a reward for their contribution to the war. Maybe USA could say that this is the price for liberation and a chair at hte table.

How would France react to their empire being dissolved?

How would the French colonies react? How would the former colonies handle their new found freedom?
 
On the plus side we don't get stuck dealing with vietnam.

On the negative side the french will deeply resent this and will look for ways to undermine us during the cold war, so expect the unalined movement to be even stronger then OTL, and for France to put more effort into creating the EU/ counter weight to american/soviet power.
 
On the plus side we don't get stuck dealing with vietnam.

On the negative side the french will deeply resent this and will look for ways to undermine us during the cold war, so expect the unalined movement to be even stronger then OTL, and for France to put more effort into creating the EU/ counter weight to american/soviet power.
Today the French mostly think that colonialism was wrong, so they should be thankfull that the USA liberateing France from perpetrating more tyranny abroad. Maybe in the short term french imperialists would hold this slight against the US, but in the long term it will accept the decision as neccesary. Besides the colonies would be thankfull and USA would gain more favor in the third world. USA could probably gain more in the third world than in france anyway.
 
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If the Vietminh don't get the power in Vietnam you might be looking at an early US involvement in the Vietnam war. Since the Vietminh were communists(as a means to an end).

You may also see an early rise of the Khmer Rouge.
 
A) In a lot of places this would take US pressure and forces being directly involved, since in Sub-Saharan Africa there was no significant desire for independence among the elites, with the occasional exception like Madagascar. Among the common people there was discontent, but not enough to make it so that those regions will simply easily separate from France. It is going to be messy, take lots of effort, determination, and painful concentration from the Americans. Algeria of course, will be the most painful of all. Any French government would be committing political suicide in 1945 to force colonies which do not want to be independent to become independent, when they are being given an ultimatum to do so. Most colonial territories in Africa if they do go independent, will be closely aligned with France, just like OTL (possibly even more so with Algeria). Although, it the political ramifications that I speak of in C go through, then that might not be the case.... much the comfort that that will be for the United States.

B) The United Kingdom is going to be fanatically opposed, as will all other European colonial powers (Netherlands, Belgium, Portugal, Spain) who will be horrified and outraged because they'll see what the US is doing and realize that they're next. An important reason for why the UK supported French membership on the Security Council was because the French would side with them on colonial matters and they were worried about being diplomatically isolated. This is infinitely worse. The UK might be the one with the biggest vested stake, but the other European colonial powers viewed their empires as extremely important : The Netherlands pinned much of their post-war recovery hopes on it, and the Portuguese were obsessed with the matter. Expect a very different and much less close US accord with these countries post-war.

C) Domestically in France this is going to be nightmarish, since it will be perceived as being an attack on France, and everybody will oppose it : there is no political party which will support the idea of French colonies being forced to be given independence by the US. Every moderate and conservative party will be heavily discredited, the French political elite will be humiliated, extreme opposition to the United States will result, and the already fragile French political scene is going to implode.

The absolute best that the US is looking at in such a scenario is a separate and independent European bloc which is opposed to the US on security, colonial, and defense policies, and is probably essentially finlandized by the USSR. The worst that they're looking at, because the European powers don't have the capability to do that in the immediate post-war era, is the victory of French communists in their elections, which will almost inevitably cause an Italian communist victory since the Italians were not that far off from that as well, and thus the effective collapse of any hope for a united anti-communist political bloc in Europe. These countries won't be Soviet puppets, they are too big, developed, and not conquered by the Red Army, but there won't be any equivalent of NATO, and it is hardly impossible to imagine the remaining territories on the European continent in Germany and the Low Countries being untenable and collapsing. After all, the French and Soviet occupation zones in Austria and Germany are going to leave precious little of UK-US regions intact, and UK-US cooperation might be somewhat... awkward. A Soviet-aligned bloc stretching from Brest to Vladivostok in effect, and almost certainly with any remaining capitalist states on the European continent finlandized by it.

Which is the inherent problem with most of the proposals to use US might to grant the colonized nations independent in 1945 : the European states are much more important than their colonies at that stage, and the US annoying them carries intensely negative consequences in the context of a bipolar world. Its possible that the US might have been able to get away with breaking off Indochina as is sometimes suggested, but the rest of the French colonial empire is going to take catastrophic costs for the US to break up in such a way.

As for the decolonized nations, you're probably looking at French West Africa and French Equatorial Africa gaining independence as federations rather than single states in 1945. I don't know about the French Caribbean, I presume they would gain independence as singular islands, but perhaps they will be grouped into a single Caribbean bloc. Most will be even more politically unstable with even less time preparing them for independence (which isn't an excuse for the Europeans and their conduct of decolonization, just there was some time OTL which they spent propping up local leaders before independence to ensure stability post-independence, which will not exist here), and will be riven with political disputes over their independence and course. The only savings grace they have is that it took more than a decade OTL for mass-level political movements to start to become dangerous in most of the states, and so mass level political action will be less developed and less of a threat to political leadership. But there will be much less direction and unity, and its entirely possible that some of these states might melt down, to profit of communist factions.
 
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Today the French mostly think that colonialism was wrong, so they should be thankfull that the USA liberated them from perpetrating more tyranny abroad. Maybe in the short term french imperialists would hold this slight against the US, but in the long term it will accept the decision as neccesary. Besides the colonies would be thankfull and USA would gain more favor in the third world. USA could probably gain more in the third world than in france anyway.

One think is come to term and change attitude by yourselfs, and understand that times are changed...another it's someonelse 'ordering' you to dissolve your empire as you were nothing else than a puppet and frankly if they have done this to the French i expect that London and Amsterdam will receive the same note and have the same attitude.
So expect an Europe much less friendlier to the USA and with more incentive to unite her effort; for the newfound liberated colonies, depend, Vietnam (and Indonesia) were pretty much already free and with their own goverment (more or less)...the african side unless somekind of mandate to prepare for independence will happen, i expect chaos in a much larger quantity (if they were not ready in OTL image 20 years earlier).
Frankly i expect that France (and the rest of the european empire) will try to keep the most through referendum (Malta, Gabon and other minor places can be kept) and if forced to leave give them the De Gaulle treatment (basically bring home everything even the kitchen sink)
 
And there's the problem that Algeria was considered a part of Metropolitan France, an integral part of the state.
It took nearly 20 years for that to change.

(It would be a bit like saying that Hawaii and Alaska were not part of America, only more so since they were not yet states)
 
For the US, this scenario is as “winnable” as a nuclear attack on Russia.
Could do it if they rally wanted, but the costs would be insane. Would be making deep enemies of the of most of the western world right when the communists look most threatening.
 
Ah, so no change from OTL then.
I could actually see it as being quite serious in Africa, OTL the French and the Americans broadly cooperated in Africa. There were a lot of disagreements, suspicions, misunderstandings, and sometimes the US was interested in edging in on the French zone of influence, but broadly the Americans were willing to let the French maintain their zone of influence in Francophone Africa, since their interests broadly coincided in keeping the communists out, the moderates in, and the nationalists down. In the event that those colonies have to be forcibly released in 1945, and in the light of a much worse Franco-American relationships, competition over them between the French and the Americans is going to be vicious. Plus of course while the US and France had their political disagreements over NATO France was always a military member of the Western alliance even after they left NATO's command structure : I doubt they'll ever be part of either after this incident.
 
What if the USA dissolved the French Empire after the allied liberation of France from Nazi Germany and its local allies. We know that USA was for the colonies gaining independance. Maybe it could be framed as justice and doing the opposite of the nazis, in France. While in the colonies it could be framed as a reward for their contribution to the war. Maybe USA could say that this is the price for liberation and a chair at hte table.

How would France react to their empire being dissolved?

How would the French colonies react? How would the former colonies handle their new found freedom?

France is going to try it's hardest to undermine the U.S in basically every chance they can. France losing basically the rest of their empire to the Americans is gonna cause some huge anger.
 
A) In a lot of places this would take US pressure and forces being directly involved, since in Sub-Saharan Africa there was no significant desire for independence among the elites, with the occasional exception like Madagascar. Among the common people there was discontent, but not enough to make it so that those regions will simply easily separate from France. It is going to be messy, take lots of effort, determination, and painful concentration from the Americans. Algeria of course, will be the most painful of all. Any French government would be committing political suicide in 1945 to force colonies which do not want to be independent to become independent, when they are being given an ultimatum to do so. Most colonial territories in Africa if they do go independent, will be closely aligned with France, just like OTL (possibly even more so with Algeria). Although, it the political ramifications that I speak of in C go through, then that might not be the case.... much the comfort that that will be for the United States.
Why would a French govorment in 1945 commit poltical suicide by stopping their own colonial projects? Does France have to control the colonies, does france owe this administration to the colonies?
 
Why would a French govorment in 1945 commit poltical suicide by stopping their own colonial projects? Does France have to control the colonies, does france owe this administration to the colonies?
Because colonies are a sign of national grandeur, French greatness, French legitimacy, French power, and are viewed as part of France under French ideology. Giving them up in response to an American ultimatum is anathema to moderate and conservative parties, and where it isn't anathema to left wing parties (it mostly is anyway, most people are patriots), they're opposed to the people who are proposing it. These colonies being reluctant about becoming independent exponentially magnifies this problem : it is one thing to grant independence to a territory which is asking for it (such as Madagascar), it another thing entirely to receive an ultimatum to give up a territory when the ruling elite there is opposed to that. Its political suicide, because on top of bowing to a foreign ultimatum, its doing so against the expressed wishes of your own people. The majority of people in French African colonies probably wouldn't be too displeased to see the French go, but they're not the ones who have voices on the international scene.

It is as if, to utilize the example of Hawaii or Japan, tomorrow China told the United States that unless if it withdrew from its colonial control of Hawaii, it would revoke the US debt it holds. Now, obviously that has the issue in that Hawaii isn't a colonial territory of the US, but for this purpose its a fine comparison : its an attack upon the prestige of the US, the legitimacy of the US, the power of the US, and it is a state which is viewed as part of the US under US ideology. Its irrelevant whether the French views on their colonies in 1945 are progressive or un-progressive or right or wrong : what matters is the way they are.
 
At the time this is proposed the US has its own "colony" in Hawaii. Arguably it is a more recent acquisition to the American state than Algeria is to France.

This would not happen.
 
What if the USA dissolved the French Empire after the allied liberation of France from Nazi Germany and its local allies. We know that USA was for the colonies gaining independance. Maybe it could be framed as justice and doing the opposite of the nazis, in France. While in the colonies it could be framed as a reward for their contribution to the war. Maybe USA could say that this is the price for liberation and a chair at hte table.

How would France react to their empire being dissolved?

How would the French colonies react? How would the former colonies handle their new found freedom?
And on what legal basis would this be being done?
 
There is also the sticky situation that French Africa (sans the protectorates), Cochinchina, and French America do have representation in the French Parlement. Furthermore, at this point Algeria is divided in Départements and considered part of the Métropole.
It's one thing for the US to demand France abandon protectorates. It's another to demand the independence of territories that have representation. It's even worse if the territories are seen as an integral part of the nation. Especially since France considers itself one of the winners of the war, not one of the losers, thanks to the loyalty of some colonies (we're still talking about a Free France writ large).
 
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