Mussolini sends a large part of the Italian Navy through the Straights of Gibraltar on a "naval visit" to Germany, and then in effect lends the ships to Germany when the war starts? Obviously the Sealion plan would almost certainly still be unworkable, (only a navy the size of the US Navy would have a chance of making Sealion work) but would it help the Axis at all? Would the British, without a war at the time, be able to stop Mussolini's fleet from sailing through the straits, in effect starting WW2 early, or would they let the Italien fleet through?
What if, three months before WW2 starts...
- Thread starter The Ranger
- Start date
It would be counterproductive, since the Germans would not be prepared to support such a large fleet.
Second, Mussolini wouldn't commit himself like this unless it seemed Germany was about to win. Third, doing this concedes all of Italy's African holdings to the British when war breaks out. This is not mentioning all the other problems, such as Italian ships being generally designed for operations in the Mediterranean, not the Atlantic, etc.
Second, Mussolini wouldn't commit himself like this unless it seemed Germany was about to win. Third, doing this concedes all of Italy's African holdings to the British when war breaks out. This is not mentioning all the other problems, such as Italian ships being generally designed for operations in the Mediterranean, not the Atlantic, etc.
The Italian ships are all short-ranged and not very seaworthy, so they won't be doing much raiding. Additionally, Germany is in a strategic position that is easy to blockade (see WW1), so all the British have to do is keep a superior fleet in the North Sea. Meanwhile, if Italy still joins the war it now has a very small fleet incapable of protecting its coasts or supplying Libya, while the British can focus on the Med since they can blockade the majority of the Axis fleets in the North Sea with less naval power than they needed to blockade the Germans and counter the Italians in two separate places.
Italian ships were made for operations in the Mediterranean and it would leave much of their empire undefended. It would also commit Italy to Germany's cause immediately, when victory was far from clear.
The Italian navy had I think 2 Modernised BBs, plus whatever of the 7 heavy and 12 light cruisers were fit for service in Sept 1939
The Andrea Doria-class refits were not finished until April and Oct 1940 and the first 2 Littorios Aug 1940 - obviously this would involve works ups as well so the actual availability would be later in all 4 cases.
What this has done is freed up the need for France and the UK to maintain so many heavy units in the Med and these can be retasked to match the combined axis force in the North sea
Germany should’ve done it the other way around sending some of its own forces prior to the breakout of the war. Send one of the Scharnhorst, a Deutschland a Hipper a light cruiser and some destroyers and some subs. Intern when war breaks out in Italian ports. Then activate when they join. Would force greater heavy ship commitments from Britain far enough from North Sea to allow some surface raiders to break trough.
Thinking about this further, the French would likely send the Dunkerques and other modern ships to British ports to help contain the main Axis fleet, and if the Fall of France isn't butterflied, there's a pretty good chance they're still there in June 1940, which could lead to the ships getting seized/persuaded to join Free France. Hell, Italy being neutered might convince the French to fight on.
Don't forget that Italy didn't consider itself ready for war in 1939, which is why Italy made Germany promise to not go to war against Britain and France until at least 1942 before signing the Pact of Steel, and when Italy found out that Germany was planning to invade Poland (which they knew would cause Britain and France to declare war on Germany), they tried to get them to attend a proposed European peace conference at the Brenner Pass to resolve the crisis (which Hitler refused, not wanting another Munich).
There's also the fact that it would tell both Britain and France that Italy was now firmly on Germany's side if war breaks out. It would most likely lead to a different plan being used by the French which could either lead to France doing better if not outright holding out or falling faster depending on what they do.
For a start French North Africa and Egypt get heavily reinforced and on September 4th Libya is invaded and probably lasts no longer than Poland.
Realize at that point (June 1939) the RM had only the two reconstructed Cavours in service for capital ships. The two Dorias and first two Littorios won't be in service until 1940. So as I see it, sending capital ships is out of the question.
Similarly, with only seven heavy cruisers, with two squadrons of three plus Pola fitted as a fleet flagship, I don't think the RM can afford to give up any.
What the RM might be able to 'sell' to the KM that that latter needs are light forces. The early Condottieri cruisers, the Cadornas, don't have much range, and existing German CLs would be good for the Baltic. But the Montecuccoli class were more balanced, and have the best range of the Condottieri, so they might be usable as ocean raiders/escorts. Germany has a number of Torpedo Boats, but they are short of destroyers, so perhaps some of the Oriani or Soldati classes accompany a pair or two of light cruisers for the port visit.
The problem of course is, if Italy is going to get into the war, the Allies will have more numerous light forces than the RM, and the latter will need all the light forces it can get.
My thoughts,
Similarly, with only seven heavy cruisers, with two squadrons of three plus Pola fitted as a fleet flagship, I don't think the RM can afford to give up any.
What the RM might be able to 'sell' to the KM that that latter needs are light forces. The early Condottieri cruisers, the Cadornas, don't have much range, and existing German CLs would be good for the Baltic. But the Montecuccoli class were more balanced, and have the best range of the Condottieri, so they might be usable as ocean raiders/escorts. Germany has a number of Torpedo Boats, but they are short of destroyers, so perhaps some of the Oriani or Soldati classes accompany a pair or two of light cruisers for the port visit.
The problem of course is, if Italy is going to get into the war, the Allies will have more numerous light forces than the RM, and the latter will need all the light forces it can get.
My thoughts,
Is Britain gonna attack ships on goodwill tour of the world and start a war in June?
I feel like the Italians would kick Mussolini out of power for leaving most of Italian fleet in Germany before declaring war on the UK.
I could easy see a pro-neutral government taking power after Mussolini and his cronies are fired for the idiocy of leaving the Italian peninsula defenseless to the French and British fleets.
I could easy see a pro-neutral government taking power after Mussolini and his cronies are fired for the idiocy of leaving the Italian peninsula defenseless to the French and British fleets.
You're talking about a guy (Mussolini) who didn't join the war until June 10, 1940 when France's defeat was clear and you're having him take an insanely risky act in June 1939 before it was known whether the Soviet Union would reach an agreement with the western allies or Germany, before it was realized how soon Poland would collapse and at a time when certianly it couldn't be known that France would fall at all (let alone quickly)?!
Do people just not care about plausibility any more?
Do people just not care about plausibility any more?
I'm with David T on this one.
Just for starters, in mid 1939 Italy had the following overseas posessions accessed through the Med: Albania, Libya (which borders potentially hostile French Tunisia and British Egypt) plus formerly Turkish Dodecanese islands (which both Greece and Turkey would like) in the eastern Med.
These need supply by boat and in the event of war the transports will need naval protection. No navy or inadequate navy will quickly mean no colonies, which in turn puts Il Duce's position in jeopardy.
This is before considering the political impact of French and British warships shelling Italian coastal towns and facilities with impunity and threatening amphibious assaults because Italian naval resources have been weakened so badly.
Just for starters, in mid 1939 Italy had the following overseas posessions accessed through the Med: Albania, Libya (which borders potentially hostile French Tunisia and British Egypt) plus formerly Turkish Dodecanese islands (which both Greece and Turkey would like) in the eastern Med.
These need supply by boat and in the event of war the transports will need naval protection. No navy or inadequate navy will quickly mean no colonies, which in turn puts Il Duce's position in jeopardy.
This is before considering the political impact of French and British warships shelling Italian coastal towns and facilities with impunity and threatening amphibious assaults because Italian naval resources have been weakened so badly.
If the Italian fleet is leaving the Med uncontested for the Royal Navy and the French fleet? I think the UK might give them an escort to Germany...