What if the magazine fed bow had been invented in the middle ages?

So somewhat late to the party, I've learned about the magazine fed bow invented by a German man named Joerg Sprave over two years ago.
See one of his many videos on the topic here:
Despite being such a recent invention, there are implementations of this idea that are entirely replicatible with materials available to craftsmen during the middle ages. It allows an archer to have up to six shots for rapid fire from an internal magazine and can be attached to almost any kind of bow. Later versions even have the entire magazine mounted on a sliding rail so that release can be operated by a handle and trigger mounted on the rear of the housing.

In the version depicted in the video the arrows (actually more like crossbow bolts in length) have to be fed into the magazine one at a time. To my mind this introduces similar problems to those experienced by armies using early bolt action weapons. Where by magazine fire allowed very high volumes of fire for a short period of time, after which reloading the magazine for gave no advantage for sustained fire over simply loading rounds straight into the breach. This mechanism would similarly give a unit of archers a terrifying initial volume of fire, after which in a prolonged action they would be reduced to loading a single arrow and then shooting. Though unlike the bolt action rifles, feeding an arrow into the bow magazine and then loosing it it would probably be slower than an archer with a normal bow doing the same. This could be mitigated by having an arrow guide on top of the magazine housing which could be used more rapidly than feeding a single bolt, or perhaps developing a stripper clip that holds five arrows at a time. Though I'm unsure if that would be possible or economical with period materials. (Joerg has developed a stripper clip, but his uses modern rubber to hold the arrows in.)

Maybe working around this units with magazine bows would adopt similar tactics to those of 18th century line infantry, whereby one or two ranks would be firing, whilst others would reload. This would allow the unit as a whole to keep up a constant, but high rate of fire.

So my question is what effect would this invention have had on warfare in the middle ages, say around the period of the hundred years war, during the supremacy of the long bow if some enterprising individual had thought of it then?
 
Later iterations seem like they could be loaded more rapidly.

But what really could be a gamechanger is some of the comments I've seen that they are easier to aim than a traditional long bow.
 
Still thinking about this one.

If easier to aim and shoot then you might be looking at a proto-gunpowder revolution. Alt-crossbowmen would be like arquebusiers or musketeers, where the skill comes in making the weapon system instead of in long individual training. One difference though is that where gunpowder required state level organization to manufacture it in large enough quantities, probably a skilled village craftsman could make the magazine-fed bow.

My speculation is that whereas gunpowder (cannons and muskets) pushed in the direction of large, centralized states, the magazine crossbow revolution would push in the direction of medium sized entities like cities or cantons. Similar to the pike.
 
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Still thinking about this one.

If easier to aim and shoot then you might be looking at a proto-gunpowder revolution. Alt-crossbowmen would be like arquebusiers or musketeers, where the skill comes in making the weapon system instead of in long individual training. One difference though is that where gunpowder required state level organization to manufacture it in large enough quantities, probably a skilled village craftsman could make the magazine-fed bow.

My speculation is that whereas gunpowder (cannons and muskets) pushed in the direction of large, centralized states, the magazine crossbow revolution would push in the direction of medium sized entities like cities or cantons. Similar to the pike.
The pikes had been widely used by the large centralized states all the way to the early XVIII century so they are hardly a relevant argument in anything besides a need to protect soldiers with the firearms prior to the mass introduction of an effective bayonet. In general, these big states had been coming into an existence not because of the firearms and the reasons and consequences were rather other way around. OTOH, in the early XVII even a big-scale private entrepreneur could produce & buy enough firearms for an army of up to 100K (with approximately 30% of infantry and
most of the cavalry having them): Wallenstein allegedly organized mass weapons production in his Duchy of Friedland and other territories he owned. Anyway, in the late MA/early modern times the “state” rarely owned the arms-producing enterprises (or at least a majority of them) and was buying most of them from the private manufacturers (as far as the muskets were involved, even in the Napoleonic France the private sector remained important) so a powerful state was important because it had money. But prior to that, money were still a very important factor because the troops had to be paid (during the 100YW the English side was having increasing problems with financing its military effort while even at the worst moment a Dauphin had an income few times greater and could keep financing his armies).


The main problem with all these non-gunpowder magazine weapons is that they were not adding anything to the existing killing power while being even more cumbersome than the early firearms. BTW, in none of the videos above these guys are shooting the arrows (unless they are so fast that they are invisible and they are not sticking out of a target) so how the whole wooden mechanism is going to work in the real battle conditions is anybody’s guess and it does not look like they are aiming (rather difficult with a very long magazine). Anyway, it does not look like the similar contraptions had been producing any miracles for the Chinese (I recall some reenactor reporting that for an “automatic” crossbow one needed to make quite a few moves, not just keep pulling a trigger).

Then of course going a major problem for a big part of the Western and Central Europe where the longbows practically were not used as the battle weapons.
 
I take your point about centralization being more financial. Fair enough.

There are plenty of videos around involving shooting and aiming, that's a red herring.

Agreed that the Chinese experience is the best source of info for how it would actually play out.
 
Still thinking about this one.

If easier to aim and shoot then you might be looking at a proto-gunpowder revolution. Alt-crossbowmen would be like arquebusiers or musketeers, where the skill comes in making the weapon system instead of in long individual training. One difference though is that where gunpowder required state level organization to manufacture it in large enough quantities, probably a skilled village craftsman could make the magazine-fed bow.

My speculation is that whereas gunpowder (cannons and muskets) pushed in the direction of large, centralized states, the magazine crossbow revolution would push in the direction of medium sized entities like cities or cantons. Similar to the pike.
The pikes had been widely used by the large centralized states all the way to the early XVIII century so they are hardly a relevant argument in anything besides a need to protect soldiers with the firearms prior to the mass introduction of an effective bayonet. In general, these big states had been coming into an existence not because of the firearms and the reasons and consequences were rather other way around. OTOH, in the early XVII even a big-scale private entrepreneur could produce & buy enough firearms for an army of up to 100K (with approximately 30% of infantry and
most of the cavalry having them): Wallenstein allegedly organized mass weapons production in his

The main problem with all these non-gunpowder magazine weapons is that they were not adding anything to the existing killing power while being even more cumbersome than the early firearms. BTW, in none of the videos above these guys are shooting the arrows (unless they are so fast that they are invisible and they are not sticking out of a target) so how the whole wooden mechanism is going to work in the real battle conditions is anybody’s guess and it does not look like they are aiming (rather difficult with a very long magazine). Anyway, it does not look like the similar contraptions had been producing any miracles for the Chinese (I recall some reenactor reporting that for an “automatic” crossbow one needed to make quite a few moves, not just keep pulling a trigger).

Then of course going a major problem for a big part of the Western and Central Europe where the longbows practically were not used as the battle weapons.
 
China already invented the repeating crossbow in 300 BC, though a successful, easy to build and use design only came during the Ming Dynasty.
The main problem with the repeating crossbow was the strain placed upon the bowstring, which is why the OG Chinese version was a small weapon that required poisoned coated darts to do the real damage.
Eventually, larger versions came round, but it only until the Ming Dynasty that it became a staple in the Imperial arsenal.
 
When your average longbowman can put 12 arrows in the air in a minute, the point of this is what exactly? The same reasoning had the Lee-Enfield hang on later than most other bolt-action rifles. We already had the trained bowmen, other nations already had the crossbow. This device would be a solution looking for a problem where there wasn't one.
 
Repeating crossbow was already invented... oh wait, someone upthread already pointed that out.

@Deadtroopers: Amend that to "average trained longbowman". The main reason crossbow, and later guns, eventually forced bow out of use was that using it required much shorter training.
 
Repeating crossbow was already invented... oh wait, someone upthread already pointed that out.

@Deadtroopers: Amend that to "average trained longbowman". The main reason crossbow, and later guns, eventually forced bow out of use was that using it required much shorter training.
Actually, in most of the Medieval Western/Central Europe the bow never was a popular military weapon so it was not forced out by anything outside England and, to some degree, France (where it was forced out by ... a pike, see “Franc-archers” on wiki). A story about the trained bowmen is popular mostly in the English-speaking world.
 
Repeating crossbow was already invented... oh wait, someone upthread already pointed that out.

@Deadtroopers: Amend that to "average trained longbowman". The main reason crossbow, and later guns, eventually forced bow out of use was that using it required much shorter training.
Read the rest of my post.
 
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When your average longbowman can put 12 arrows in the air in a minute, the point of this is what exactly?

Because your "average longbowman" can do that for maybe a few minutes before getting too exhausted to continue and being left unable to keep fighting in anything approaching an effective capacity.

If easier to aim and shoot then you might be looking at a proto-gunpowder revolution.
Doubtful. Guns have significant armor piercing requiring expensive improvements in armor, that ultimately were overcome by the power inherent in the weapon. Bows and crossbows cannot replicate this. It might be an interesting novelty for a while, but by the end of the hundred years war the longbow was basically obsolete, so I doubt this weapon will keep going much longer.
 
Because your "average longbowman" can do that for maybe a few minutes before getting too exhausted to continue and being left unable to keep fighting in anything approaching an effective capacity.
Henry VIII set effective shooting range as 220 yards. Infantry at the double would cover that in about 80 seconds. Furthest range at the butts recorded as 345 yards. Against infantry your longbowmen aren't going to engaged for more than 2 minutes before the enemy has closed to knife range. How many arrows to a quiver and how much would that quiver weigh? I doubt yer man would be carrying more than ten minutes of arrows. I doubt your argument would enter into things.
 
I'm suddenly thinking about Carrhae, where there was supposedly a train of camels loaded up with extra arrows for the horse archers. How much of a logistical burden would supplying these rapid-fire bows be on an army? Or on the fletchers who would have to setuple their productivity to keep an army supplied?
 
The bow seems mostly a useful weapon, if the enemy can’t get. If you ride up fires some arrows and ride away again, well that’s a good way to lower the risk of you being killed, standing on the ground against a enemy which moves at least as fast as you and who are better armed and armored that seems a great way to lose some bowmen.
 
In siege contexts and chévauchée (horseman raids / mounted infantry raids), I could see a use for it. However, I've always felt arrow-magazines for regular bows would be a firly bragging rights" improvement, with a fairly limited number of military shooting tasks they could accomplish better than simple nock-span-release shooting, one arrow at a time. Six or maybe eight arrows released a minute by a professional military archer on the battlefield is already nothing to sneeze at. You don't need to four or more arrows within a few seconds to be an intimidating archery force on the battlefield. Plus, if your arrows run out, you have to open up the magazine and start loading it. That's hardly all that great a time-saving method compared to the traditional "only a single arrow" method.

Tod already made a lot of good points about the "Instant Legolas" in the video linked to above by piratedude.

I think what most people overlook, similarly to when talking about single-shot crossbows and the two Chinese repeating types (1 and 2), is that faster rate of shooting isn't necessarily preferrable to historical people in proper warfare. It could have its niches, sure - ones when a bow or crossbow equipped archer would grumble "Pity I don't have a faster way to nock, span and release..." - but I find the idea everyone was clamouring for a rapid-shooting weapon on the battlefield to be a bit dubious.

For comparison, even in modern day fighting, do you think most soldiers or law enforcement personnel fire their guns on full-auto, all the time ? Unlike what Hollywood action movies have taught many, pointing a gun loosely, "spray and pray" firing and hoping you'll hit someone, is not an effective way to do ranged fighting. Especially not in a military context. (Most of the movie stuff is absurd anyway: Even a small machine pistol fired on full-auto would give you plenty of recoil, often hard to handle while pointing it one-handed.) Even with contemporary assault rifles, the vast majority of people who use them, use them effectivelly. Meaning, they use them set to semi-auto firing. Some guns have only semi-auto firing anyway, including military rifles. There was a reluctance until the second half of the 20th century to part with bolt-action rifles. They were faster and more practical than single-shot rifles, but even in these, you had to regularly work a mechanism to load another round, and you had to replace the clip in the magazine after a few rounds. Why weren't bolt-action rifles done away with entirely after the first world war ? Because they were more economical to construct, that's one point in their favour, and because the soldiers using them were forced to conserve ammo reasonably. If you can't fire something on burst, or full-auto, or even easily round-after-round, you are forced to really think about your shooting. You don't panic and avoid spending precious ammunition against an adversary or target you could take out with one or two more methodical rounds. Semi-auto firing forces a soldier to keep cool and make a shot count. Even if it's just covering fire, rather than shooting at an enemy.

And that's my point when it comes to bows, including military longbows and composite cavalry bows of the Middle Ages and early modern times. A military archer will find an arrow-magazine to be a useful accessory for very specific tasks and contexts. But it will not be a thing he will be using constantly on the battlefield. For the most part, a military archer will focus more on precision and hitting the target, rather than just wildly showing off with how many arrows he can shoot in a very short time. Could the magazine help him in certain contexts, or when he's in a pickle ? Maybe ! Would it be something that would be used uniformly on the battlefield and no one would ever bother going back to

The biggest hurdle: A lot of the bows tested with this magazine have a relatively low draw weight. If you want to take a military warbow, one with a very high draw weight that you need a real amount of strength and training to span, and use the magazine for it, the magazine might prove a hindrance, or even malfunction. It might not be compatible with the sort of warbows we see in Britain of the 14th to 16th centuries. You see the likes of Internet show-offs like Lars Andersen claiming that their speed-shooting makes them archery maestros, but in reality, it doesn't matter at all, from a practical warfare perspective. He's using a bow with a piddly draw weight. Give him a medieval military warbow, for foot or horseback fighting, let him try his speed-shooting tricks with those... and he'll have a hard time drawing back the bowstring at all. To call back to Hollywood movies again, most of the stuff where someone pulls back a bowstring and holds it for entire minutes, pointing at someone, or just nocks, spans and shoots within the blink of an eye, is bunk. Most prop-bows in those films have very little draw weight, they're often the equivalent of children's toy bows or even weaker ! If the characters in those films had a real bow for fighting, the physics of the thing would simply not allow them to do nocking-spanning-shooting that fast. This exact same draw weight hurdle exists in the Chinese repeating crossbows. They were short-to-medium range weapons. Though you could use them as a sort of submachine gun for home defence or for protecting a guardhouse or during a siege, the selfbows or composite bows of these crossbows.




These three videos are good companion pieces to Tod's video above. As much as Jason Kingsley from Modern History TV liked the arrow-magazine, he is very keen to point out where it has its defficiencies as part of a medieval military weapon in the first two videos. And the third video makes very good points as well, I wholly recommend watching that one, in addition to the first two.

Additionally, looking at Mr. Sprave's Instant Legolas design and its derivatives (Instant Robin Hood, etc.), the wooden magazine's dimensions also limit what sort of arrows you can use in that thing. Sometimes, you might need a broadhead, but if the magazine is constructed in a way that prohibits easy use of arrows with a slightly wider profile, that's hardly beneficial for varied military archery needs. Or even self-defence needs and hunting needs. If the magazine is hard to build and hard to make operational in such a way that you could use it to quickly shoot several arrows with a particular type of hunting head, or even multiple different types of hunting heads, then its benefits are more limited then it would seem at first glance. Mr. Sprave admits this himself, in the very first video he made of the Instant Legolas arrow-magazine. It's a very good and ingenious device, but not necessarily a one-size-fits all device. It does have its understandable mechanical, size and physical drawbacks.

There's a further snag for medieval military longbows specifically, particularly the British type: They do not have the same bowstave profile as a lot of later wooden longbows have, longbows made for recreational target-shooting. Those tend to have a more D-shaped profile, whereas the medieval warbow had a more O-shaped or 0-shaped, rounded or elipsoid profile. Meaning that any arrow-magazine would have to be modified in such a way that it could easily attach to a period longbow.

Historically, you had some Tatar mercenary horseman carry a small tiller tied to their saddle, with a simple trigger. They could attach their composite hornbows, commonly used for horse archery, to the front of these tillers when needed. They'd get a simple crossbow, useful for certain special roles (presumably patrol roles or shooting with more pin-point accuracy). That's about the extent of my knowledge of horse archers or mounted infantrymen looking for any tech additions to their bows. I have never heard of a nomadic people being all that interested in a more complex device that could shoot faster than their already fast nock-span-shoot combat archery skills.

When your average longbowman can put 12 arrows in the air in a minute, the point of this is what exactly? The same reasoning had the Lee-Enfield hang on later than most other bolt-action rifles. We already had the trained bowmen, other nations already had the crossbow. This device would be a solution looking for a problem where there wasn't one.

Henry VIII set effective shooting range as 220 yards. Infantry at the double would cover that in about 80 seconds. Furthest range at the butts recorded as 345 yards. Against infantry your longbowmen aren't going to engaged for more than 2 minutes before the enemy has closed to knife range. How many arrows to a quiver and how much would that quiver weigh? I doubt yer man would be carrying more than ten minutes of arrows. I doubt your argument would enter into things.

Yes, this is what I'm getting at.

People really overestimate the usefulness of rapid-fire stuff in a military context, just because something "looks cool".
 
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