What if the Kingdom of Rome was never overthrown

A lot of the time, when I search for "What if the Rom-" on Google, a lit is provided and it is typically "-an Republic never fell" or "-an Empire never fell", yet it doesn't autocomplete to "-an Kingdom", despite Rome originally having been a kingdom before it became a republic. Therefore, Rome's history as a kingdom is important in Roman history, as it is the beginning of Roman history.

So, my question is:

"What if the Kingdom of Rome never fell?"
 

Magical123

Banned
The Roman Monarchy is a lot more legendary than confirmed history.

However I've always interpreted the Roman monarchy to be tied in a tributary sense to the Etruscans.

So if the Monarchy still lasts-I guess you'd need a weaker aristocracy to make up the senatorial class you'd have Rome never become important.

Or maybe you'd have Rex Romana!
 
However I've always interpreted the Roman monarchy to be tied in a tributary sense to the Etruscans.

I know that theory was quite popular in older scholarship (maybe still is? This period isn't my speciality), but I don't think it's really tenable. For one thing, "the Etruscans" were never a unified people, but were divided up into lots of different city-states, muck like the contemporary Greeks. Accordingly being tributary to the Etruscans would just mean being tributary to one of the Etruscan cities, but since Rome was already one of the biggest city-states in Italy by the fall of the monarchy it's unlikely that any Etruscan polity would have been strong enough to make them a tributary. For another thing, a lot of the older theories rested on a now discarded model of history wherein cultural transmission went hand-in-hand with political domination. Roman artistic culture during the Tarquinian period borrowed heavily from Etruscan influences; ergo, Rome was under Etruscan domination. But this doesn't follow at all. Etruria was home to a wealthy, sophisticated and advanced civilisation right next-door to Rome (the nearest Etruscan city was something like thirty miles away); we just don't need to posit any Etruscan political domination to explain why the Romans might want to copy stuff from the Etruscans.
 

Magical123

Banned
I know that theory was quite popular in older scholarship (maybe still is? This period isn't my speciality), but I don't think it's really tenable. For one thing, "the Etruscans" were never a unified people, but were divided up into lots of different city-states, muck like the contemporary Greeks. Accordingly being tributary to the Etruscans would just mean being tributary to one of the Etruscan cities, but since Rome was already one of the biggest city-states in Italy by the fall of the monarchy it's unlikely that any Etruscan polity would have been strong enough to make them a tributary. For another thing, a lot of the older theories rested on a now discarded model of history wherein cultural transmission went hand-in-hand with political domination. Roman artistic culture during the Tarquinian period borrowed heavily from Etruscan influences; ergo, Rome was under Etruscan domination. But this doesn't follow at all. Etruria was home to a wealthy, sophisticated and advanced civilisation right next-door to Rome (the nearest Etruscan city was something like thirty miles away); we just don't need to posit any Etruscan political domination to explain why the Romans might want to copy stuff from the Etruscans.
When Brutus(I believe) drove out the last king didn't he fleet to Eturia or something? Seems to me that the Roman monarchy was tied to the Etruscans?
 

Alcsentre Calanice

Gone Fishin'
The Roman expansion started when they chased the last Etruscan king (Rome was clearly a city ruled by Etruscans) and had to defend themselves against invasions of Veii and Clusium to restore Etruscan domination. We really can't be more precise since we haven't any reliable sources from these times.

IMHO Rome's rise to world domination was largely due to luck and very special circumstances. Without overthrowing Tarquinius Superbus, Rome will avoid many conflicts and also many victories. I assume that with a POD so far back Rome might never achieve great prominence. So no, no Roman Empire with a king. However, Rome and the Latium will play a regional role due to salt trade and its position in central Italy.
 
Rome was not a kingdom. It was a City-State with a king at its head. And after the Tarquins were expelled, Rome retained a rex sacrorum and used to name very frequently interrexes.

Like Sparta which had and retained 2 joint kings.

Like Athens which retained an archon king.

And by the way, under the late Tarquins, Rome already dominated most of Latium. Expelling the Tarquins caused the crumble of the first roman-latin league and it took one century for Rome to reestablish its domination in Latium.
 
Rome was not a kingdom. It was a City-State with a king at its head. And after the Tarquins were expelled, Rome retained a rex sacrorum and used to name very frequently interrexes.

Like Sparta which had and retained 2 joint kings.

Like Athens which retained an archon king.

And by the way, under the late Tarquins, Rome already dominated most of Latium. Expelling the Tarquins caused the crumble of the first roman-latin league and it took one century for Rome to reestablish its domination in Latium.

I don't know, but it seems to me, that keeping a Roman king or kings for ceremonial purposes is possible, but remaining a 'true' kingdom is improbable.
You won't find too many 'true' kingdoms in Italy or in the Western Mediterranean.
And Rome after all was the product of the Italian and Mediterranean civilization.
 
When Brutus(I believe) drove out the last king didn't he fleet to Eturia or something? Seems to me that the Roman monarchy was tied to the Etruscans?

He went to Clusium, Latium and Capua in turn. If anything, it looks like he was trying to enlist the help of whomever seemed like they could win back his throne for him.

Plus, according to the legends, Tarquin I's father was from Corinth, and Tarquin himself emigrated to Rome because foreigners weren't allowed to hold office in Tarquinii. So if the Tarquins were foreigners, they were arguably Greek rather than Etruscan.
 
He went to Clusium, Latium and Capua in turn. If anything, it looks like he was trying to enlist the help of whomever seemed like they could win back his throne for him.

Plus, according to the legends, Tarquin I's father was from Corinth, and Tarquin himself emigrated to Rome because foreigners weren't allowed to hold office in Tarquinii. So if the Tarquins were foreigners, they were arguably Greek rather than Etruscan.
Isn't there circumstantial evidence that Lars Porsenna held Rome as a tributary for awhile?
 
Its worth noting that theres no reason to treat the Roman accounts of the regal era as serious history.

For instance, the king being overthrown because of the rape of Lucretia sounds about as likely as Helen causing the Trojan war.

We can draw some conclusions though, namely that Rome, like other city states in the mediterranean, was a tyranny before it developed a political system built on elite consensus. Tarquin may or may not have been a real person, or a composite based on several rulers, or a mix of historical and mythological elements. We can say the same for some of the figures of the Iliad.
 
Isn't there circumstantial evidence that Lars Porsenna held Rome as a tributary for awhile?

Well, the fact that Porsenna apparently went on to wage war to the south of Rome might indicate that he'd succeeded in defeating the city, although if he did his subjugate Rome his reign apparently wasn't harsh or long-lasting enough to leave any memory in Roman historical tradition.
 
Its worth noting that theres no reason to treat the Roman accounts of the regal era as serious history.

For instance, the king being overthrown because of the rape of Lucretia sounds about as likely as Helen causing the Trojan war.

We can draw some conclusions though, namely that Rome, like other city states in the mediterranean, was a tyranny before it developed a political system built on elite consensus. Tarquin may or may not have been a real person, or a composite based on several rulers, or a mix of historical and mythological elements. We can say the same for some of the figures of the Iliad.

Even if the accounts of the Tarquinian period have been embellished over time, they're still much more historical than those of the Trojan War, and some of the details have been corroborated by archaeological evidence (e.g., several of the building projects attributed to the later Kings have turned up in the archaeological record). Dismissing the existence of Tarquin seems hyper-sceptical, and I don't think many historians do so.
 
Its worth noting that theres no reason to treat the Roman accounts of the regal era as serious history.

For instance, the king being overthrown because of the rape of Lucretia sounds about as likely as Helen causing the Trojan war.

We can draw some conclusions though, namely that Rome, like other city states in the mediterranean, was a tyranny before it developed a political system built on elite consensus. Tarquin may or may not have been a real person, or a composite based on several rulers, or a mix of historical and mythological elements. We can say the same for some of the figures of the Iliad.

Moreover, answering this would also likely require a much greater understanding of the concurrent regional powers, and for example we know remarkably little about the Etruscans. The Romans intentionally and/or unintentionally did an excellent job of eradicating most direct sources of information, and seemed to go out of their way to not mention them very much in their own records.
 
I won't lie, it looks like the PoD you'd need is that whoever overthrew the last Etruscan King was a Roman, and became the first Roman King. That would probably be the best point to consider moving from city-state to regional kingdom. After that, with a theoretically reliable inheritance of the throne, it could do pretty well as said from the salt trade, but it also suggest they'd have a permanent desire to show their Etruscan neighbours (Veii?) what for. If they can achieve that, I don't see why they couldn't follow a similar projection through Italy at least. They have some pretty good natural borders in the region, river one side, mountains the other, and then they can push south the Capua. It'll take a similar amount of time IMO, but it'd be interesting to see the differences.
 
Moreover, answering this would also likely require a much greater understanding of the concurrent regional powers, and for example we know remarkably little about the Etruscans. The Romans intentionally and/or unintentionally did an excellent job of eradicating most direct sources of information, and seemed to go out of their way to not mention them very much in their own records.
I think it was unintentional, since we do have evidence that Roman historical works on the Etruscans existed, the most famous being that of Claudius. They just didn't come down to us.
 
One of the greatest ever Historians of Rome, the great Friedrich Munzer, showed one century ago, in his masterpiece Roman political parties and families, how the roman regime and ruling groups, evolved and worked.

And from his work and other sources (especially Badian and his Foreign clientelae work), it is possible to understand the pattern that progressively led from what is rawly called the monarchy and what is rawly called the republic.

Most telling is the case of the gens Fabia in the first years of what is called the republic. For 7 years, from 485 BC to 479 BC, there was a Fabius as consul. This was unprecedented since 509 and the fall of the Tarquins and never happened again until Augustus' 8 consecutive consulships from 30 BC to 23 BC.

What this shows is that the monarchy was a clan dominating the State as well as the republic often was a clan or an alliance of clans dominating the State, although for a much shorter time.

And the leading clan or alliance used its preeminence in the State to conclude family and political alliances with foreign aristocracies, some of whom moved to Rome in order to consolidate or strengthen their position at Rome.

There are archeological finds showing there were other Tarquins than the 2 kings and than the sons of Tarquin the proud. And these finds showed that some of these other Tarquins held commanding positions either at Rome, or at other location that were tarquinian "possessions".

The Licinii, originating from Etruria, probably came to Rome in the wake of the Tarquins. It is probably because they were marked as "tarquinians" that they were not reckoned as patricians (which only meant being reckoned as enjoying full political and religious rights) but were the most prestigious and powerful plebeian aristocratic family as early as the late 5th century BC (as is evidenced by the fasti and the legend of the 2 daughters of a Fabian princeps).

The Claudii were sabine foreigners the head of whom was integrated as patrician (the lesser families of the gens Claudia were integrated with mere plebeian status, like the Claudii Marcelli) in 504 BC because the clans dominating Rome were then so weak that they were ready to pay such a high price. From the mid-5th century on, Rome felt less weak so it never again granted patrician status to foreign aristocratic allies that were integrated in the City of Rome.

The evolution is that there was a social evolution that made more and more difficult for a single clan to hold supreme political power at Rome for a long time.

And this trend went on until the gathering of the immense resources of the empire made It possible for one aristocrat to reestablish a strong and lasting monarchic power for one individual and his family.
 
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Even if the accounts of the Tarquinian period have been embellished over time, they're still much more historical than those of the Trojan War, and some of the details have been corroborated by archaeological evidence (e.g., several of the building projects attributed to the later Kings have turned up in the archaeological record). Dismissing the existence of Tarquin seems hyper-sceptical, and I don't think many historians do so.

It may be that the Tarquins were real people, like I said, but where do you draw the line? The elder Tarquin? His predecessor? Romulus?

As we've seen with the King Arthur legends, societies are capable of spinning legends based loosely on real people and events from a few centuries before.
 
Monarchy and the idea and the self-understanding of the roman senate as a prime executive body does not work together. If you like a stable roman monarchy, you have to get rid of the senate. Therefore you have to diminish the economical, social and political power of all these senators, which are the leaders of the roman tribes and more. Good luck, developing a plausible story. Changing an entire society in a plausible manner, is the most challenging task an author of an alternate history can face.

Looking to the structure, nature and mindset of the roman society, the surprise is not, that the romans dethroned their king, but that they were that late.
 
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