Spain genetically, papally, and legally have a claim to the title of Roman Emperor. So what if they enforced this claim throughout its history? (Title legally given in 1499 and it entered the family genetically ~1530s)
What if Spain enforced its claim to the title of Roman Emperor
- Thread starter JustinianIsBae
- Start date
Is it the title of Latin Emperor of Constantinople ?
Because, Emperor or not, they still ain't got a claim worth shit on France.
Because, Emperor or not, they still ain't got a claim worth shit on France.
The last Latin Emperor in exile, James of Baux apparently willed his claim to Louis of Anjou, claimant to Naples.
From what I understand the Roman emperor in the east sold the title to the king of Spain at some point ( Ferdinand 2 and Isabell 1 i think). This is actually why some believe that Spain hold the greatest claim the to throne. this is more then likely where op is coming from, though I have no idea what he talking about in terms of genetics.
Crazy Boris
Banned
I don’t think Spain could do much of anything until the Ottomans fall. Since they had both Constantinople and de facto the title of emperor, given to Mehmed by the patriarch of Constantinople. The fall of the Ottomans would give the Spanish a chance to press their claim since it would become unquestionably vacant, and possibly even get a hold of Constantinople, however, they would still have Russia to contend with, and given Russia’s proximity to the Bosporus, they’ll probably have a better chance of grabbing it unless they fall into civil war as in OTL.
Osman Aga
Banned
Expecting the Ottomans to fall is going to disappoint the Spanish. The Russians had the claim too but they did not await the fall of the Ottomans. As far as the Roman Catholic Kings of Spain are concerned, the patriarchs recognizing a Muslim as the Roman Empire, is meaningless.
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It would have not been the proper conditions for the use of the Spanish armada (it didn't stop them from using it on England and failing otl) but if the Spanish don't use the armada on England, I wonder how effective the Spanish armada might be at contesting ottoman control in the Mediterranean if it tried to push its claims by proclaiming its self the defender of Christianity in the Balkans and get a hand in Greece like Venice did otl and because Spain at the time could claim try to extend its claim on Greece or at least part of it through Aragon and Naples (who held southern Greece for most of the 1300's)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Achaea#The_feudal_conflict_of_the_Morea_(1307%E2%80%931383)_and_last_decades_of_the_principality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Neopatras https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Athens#Aragonese_domination. The options I see open for Spain are trying to use its navy to sever the European part of the ottoman empire from the Asian part in order to cut off reinforcements and, (or) possibly getting the pope to sign off on another crusade since they where still going on (to varying degrees of success admittedly) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusade_of_Varna or alternately setting up a early holy league (which otl at the time had the goal of driving the ottomans from Europe but only achieved part of their aim by succeeding in stopping ottoman expansion into Europe, so perhaps if Spain had preserved the power it had wasted only a few years prior they might have made further success and Poland (now Poland Lithuania), having been a prior participant in the crusade of Varna agenst the ottomans might be a possible candidate for expansion of the crusade or holy league). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_League_(1571) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_League_(1594) the otl participants of the 1594 holy league are shown below, (with the notable absence of Venice from the prior 1571 holy league who might might make for a possible returning candidate alongside previously mentioned potential members like Poland Lithuania and unmentioned ones like Sweden)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Achaea#The_feudal_conflict_of_the_Morea_(1307%E2%80%931383)_and_last_decades_of_the_principality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Neopatras https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Athens#Aragonese_domination. The options I see open for Spain are trying to use its navy to sever the European part of the ottoman empire from the Asian part in order to cut off reinforcements and, (or) possibly getting the pope to sign off on another crusade since they where still going on (to varying degrees of success admittedly) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusade_of_Varna or alternately setting up a early holy league (which otl at the time had the goal of driving the ottomans from Europe but only achieved part of their aim by succeeding in stopping ottoman expansion into Europe, so perhaps if Spain had preserved the power it had wasted only a few years prior they might have made further success and Poland (now Poland Lithuania), having been a prior participant in the crusade of Varna agenst the ottomans might be a possible candidate for expansion of the crusade or holy league). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_League_(1571) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_League_(1594) the otl participants of the 1594 holy league are shown below, (with the notable absence of Venice from the prior 1571 holy league who might might make for a possible returning candidate alongside previously mentioned potential members like Poland Lithuania and unmentioned ones like Sweden)
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Osman Aga
Banned
Poland-Lithuania of the late 16th century is a paper tiger. They are hardly a threat to the Ottomans.
Again, Spain can redirect all the forces they want towards the Ottomans. It does not make them any more or less claimants to Rome. Ideally is if they gained more land in Italy due to inheritance and thus they own almost all of Italy minus Venice, Papal State, Genoa and Savoy by 1700. They own the lands of the Western Empire at least. For a meaningless title (it had prestige but it did not offer much by this time), they have good backing. Spain can claim being the actual heirs of Rome while protecting the Papacy. But I think that claim will go to when another son of the Spanish King inherits Spanish Italy. After all, it is all but prestigious claim, nothing more nothing less. They don't need territories to form something like EU IV.
Side Note... If the Bourbons inherit Spain, and most of Italy in an alternate scenario, that is the closest the Western Roman Empire will ever be resembled... That would be interesting in a good way...
Osman Aga
Banned
Another issue I see with this. Spain given a Venice analogue in Morea. Venice had a free hand while most Ottoman Soldiers were tied in the North in Hungary and Moldova. In the era of the Armada, the Ottoman Landforce is still the Strongest and biggest of Europe. Spain invading Morea is not going to lead to success overall in the Campaign.
The European forces at the time where not just comparable but larger then the ottomans (based on the article of the Long Turkish War https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Turkish_War) and if the holy league commits a larger force (greater spanish commitment and use of the Armada, alongside the possible entery of the polish, swedish venetian ect. with other possible members possibly coming from alexanders mission https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_League_(1594)#Mission_of_Aleksandar_Komulović) the ottomans should be outnumbered at least 2 to 1 (they almost were otl with the holy legue numbering over 300,000+ and the ottomans numbering between 160,000 to 180,000 otl, troop numbers are in the 1st link on the long turkish war) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_League_(1594)
As you mentioned ottoman troops at the time where strong which was likely what allowed them to close some of the gap on the Europeans numaric advantage but their is only so much that is able to do as the article mentions that casualties where heavy on both sides so since we have established the otl conflict was able to make the ottomans bleed I don't think it would be to far of a stretch that a greater commitment agenst the ottomans might might see additional give on its borders at the vary least.
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Once the Hapsburgs are Kings of Spain and Holy Roman Emperor there's zero chance that Spain claims the Roman Empire title. Through translatio imperio the HRE is the Roman Empire, at least in the eyes of western Europe. Spain is unlikely to make the claim in the first place because of that, and even less likely when its there cousins that hold the title.
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Osman Aga
Banned
The size of the armies were big but the Holy League never went as far as putting it all in field. The Ottomans could field large armies as most soldiers were Sipahis and they were landed soldiers. There were enough of them. Hence why the Ottoman Military worked out well in the 16th century but started to lose effect as the 17th century went onwards.
To me, Spain can invade Morea like Venice did, but not in the late 16th century and expect the same kind of victory. Especially when the Spanish-Ottoman Hostility was replaced by Dutch revolts and wars with England as late as the mid 17th century and later France taking over as main enemy of Spain. Making a war with the Ottomans even less likely.
If I am not mistaken, the primary legitimacy behind the HRE's title is based around the vacancy for the title of emperor of the west after the fall of the western empire, which in theory allowed for the position to be filled (by the pope). So if Spain is claiming the title of the east there should be no issue since there is no overlap, do to the titles being separate. If anything I imagen the Hapsburgs would be vary pleased to have their dynasty hold legitimacy to both the titles of east and west.