What if Queen Elizabeth of York lived?
- Thread starter RedKing
- Start date
But you're going back on yourself.
All I said was that Anne was a negative influence on Henry, now you accept that she wanted the crown and was determined to get - at that point she was a negative influence.
Maybe she was a victim in some respects of Henry, virtually all women of that period were victims of their gender and the men that controlled them because of it.
Catherine of Aragon ultimately resisted Henry's will and paid the price for it.
Anne did not.
They were different women from different backgrounds.
I am not suggesting Anne aspired to be Queen from the outset but when the opportunity presented itself (and the alternative was possibly social ruin and ending up married to a no one), she wasn't going to walk away from it. However I find the narrative that she was forced to marry Henry utterly bizarre. If he had that level of power over her (and disregard for her feelings), he would have raped her at the outset of their relationship, not gone along with the sex free relationship that lasted several years.
Eleanor of Aquitaine was 44 when she gave birth to the future King John.
However for the handful examples of Queens giving birth in their 40s, you can probably identify hundreds of princesses and Queens in their teens or 20s dying in childbirth.
It was pure luck I think.
Who the year in which was supposedly paint the portrait who give her age is clearly wrong as it can not being painted BEFORE Elizabeth’s wedding to Edward IV.
For what reason Anne would be a negative influence? Because she felt trapped and was unhappy for all that waiting?
Forced in the sense who she had no other choice. She was unable to give a full refusal to Henry without big negative consequences for herself and her family and Henry stalker her and forced her to accept his courtship. Is not like Henry disregarded her expressed feelings, but who she was unable to get away from him. Once Henry offered marriage she had no chance to walk away from him free to stay at Court and marrying well. Her choices were either marrying Henry or ruin for herself and her family, when all she truly wanted was a good marriage and a family of her own.
And that is what I meant by the first part of my comment...and I wouldn’t rule out that Anne (a) was subject to the whims of others even while at the height of her personal power/influence and (b) knew all along that she was dealing with life and death stuff when she chose to pursue marriage to Henry.
See there I disagree...I think Anne wanted to marry Henry, if not because she genuinely loved him then at least because she found it preferable to being his mistress, like her sister had been. I mean, she had to have known that Henry wouldn’t stop pursuing her until she slept with him, so once she realized that marriage was a possibility, she decided to go for it and certainly encouraged Henry in getting annulment of his marriage to Catherine.
True, but could Elizabeth make Henry treat Catherine better while she’s in England?
True, but I have heard people suggest she was named after Catherine of Aragon.
Oh I see. So somewhere around that time period.
Really? What would he reaction be when the Pope (or rather Charles) turns the annulment proposal down
No, as Catherine’s money troubles were NOT fault of Henry VII as Catherine with a dowry NOT fully paid (and who would be paid only with her remarriage) and a NOT CONSUMMATED wedding was not entitled to the dower or a to an higher allowance BECAUSE her parents were the ones who needed to provide for her expenses.
Likely because she is the only Catherine to which they can think, ignoring the existence of more likely namesakes.
She would still support Henry because she know who his actions are for the good of England. Think to Elizabeth‘s own life and tell me if she can truly believe who Mary as heiress is not a likely disaster for England.
I meant better as in not just leaving her alone in Durham manor for the most part.
I guess, but Elizabeth did get along with Catherine so it’s not impossible. Though Catherine of Valois is a much more likely namesake.
True, but I don’t think she’d support Henry marrying someone like Anne Boleyn. She’s probably push for a noble at the very least.
She had first received Durnham House in London, then renounced it and rejoined court and later was sent in the country at Fulham Palace once Henry VII had his son rejecting the engagement. The treaty who established Catherine and Henry’s wedding made also clear who Henry VII had not to pay an allowance to her before her wedding to the new Prince of Wales (and likely the full payment of her dowry)
Katherine of York is the likeliest namesake.
Anne Boleyn was not a nobody.
Oh I see.
Doesn’t really matter Catherine of Valois or Katherine of York are much more likely namesakes than Catherine of Aragon
She kind of was though, I know her father was a favourite of Henry VIII and all but if I am correct he didn’t become an Earl until after the marriage. Sure he was rich but I do feel like Elizabeth could grown up am marriage between Henry and Anne (or I could be wrong since it was a similar dynamic with her parents).
Thomas Boleyn becomed a peer (as Viscount) in 1525, his Earldoms of Ormond and Wiltshire would arrive in 1529 and 1530 (but he had a serious claim to Ormond, who had belonged to his maternal grandfather and was not restricted to the male line, but was taken, together with the Irish lands, by his grandfather‘s male heir instead of being inherited by the rightful heiresses). In any case Anne was a young woman of good family (her mother was an Howard) whose life and reputation would be destroyed if Henry got back on his word of marrying her without she had any responsibility for it. And Henry getting a princess as second wife with the oppos of the Emperor was pretty unlikely (and no, France would NEVER marry Renee to Henry)
I see but the points stands they weren’t really high enough for Henry until after he became infatuated with Anne. I guess being Norfolk’s Granddaighter makes her more attractive though. As for Henry getting a second pricnsss bride why would Charles block that? Also I agree Renee was probably going to Ferrara. I doubt an Anglo-French alliance could be formed at this stage.
Because Charles V wanted Henry keeping his aunt (fiercely pro-Spain) as Queen and his cousin Mary as heiress for securing his control over England. England was shifting alliances between Spain and France at that point so if France had a princess of a the right age and without complications available for Henry, a French match would be likely (Renee had a strong claim to Brittany so she needed to be married to a not too powerful ruler far away from Brittany)
Could Charles not have offered a Habsburg proxy? Such as Maria, Duchess of Viseu. As for the France bit true but the most age appropriate match Madeleine of France wouldn’t be of age to marry until 1535 and probably could safely bear children until 1537. Granted the same goes for Maria of Viseu but she does work as a compromise bride for Henry.
Henry do not wish to wait. He need a son soon, so he can not take the risk of waiting for a child bride. Henry had NOT waited for it when he was a young boy so for what reason he would do it now?
True, I did acknowledge he’d have to wait. So is he still marrying Anne in this scenario?
It’s your TL...
also, if you want a French match for Henry try Isabelle of Navarre - she’s pretty low, yeah, but she is the sister in law of Marguerite d’Angoulême, King francis’s sister, so she would do nicely as a proxy match.
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