What if Queen Elizabeth of York lived?

For those who don't know Queen Elizabeth of York, eldest child of King Edward IV, wife of King Henry VII and Mother to King Henry VIII. She and Henry VII were in a loving marriage and were quite close. They had 4 children who survived infancy (though the eldest Arthur, tragically died at 15). However, she died in childbirth in 1503 to a daughter who died not long after. But what if Queen Elizabeth and her daughter survived? Let's say she lives until 1526, what might this do the affect King Henry VII and King Henry VIII's reign? Could it lead to an earlier marriage between Henry and Catherine?
 
For those who don't know Queen Elizabeth of York, eldest child of King Edward IV, wife of King Henry VII and Mother to King Henry VIII. She and Henry VII were in a loving marriage and were quite close. They had 4 children who survived infancy (though the eldest Arthur, tragically died at 15). However, she died in childbirth in 1503 to a daughter who died not long after. But what if Queen Elizabeth and her daughter survived? Let's say she lives until 1526, what might this do the affect King Henry VII and King Henry VIII's reign? Could it lead to an earlier marriage between Henry and Catherine?
I don't think it would have led to an earlier marriage between Henry and Catherine - remember he was only 17/18 when they actually married.
Elizabeth was reported to a gentle and caring woman so I do think it would be better for Catherine - Elizabeth likely would not have influenced policy so there wouldn't have been a clearer plan for Henry and Catherine to marry unless Henry VII thought it was politically advantageous but Elizabeth would have been more financially generous to Catherine which would make that period of Catherine's life more comfortable.
I imagine as Queen Dowager Elizabeth would have lived a quiet life (she was nothing like her mother or Margaret Beaufort), mostly in the country coming to Court for key events but otherwise disappearing from history. She may have had the opportunity to care in the country for her granddaughter Princess Mary.
 
I don't think it would have led to an earlier marriage between Henry and Catherine - remember he was only 17/18 when they actually married.
They were scheduled to marry in 1505, but once Isabella I died it was cancelled. Maybe here Elizabeth could convince Henry VII to go ahead with or butterflies could cause Isabella to live a tad bit longer.
Elizabeth was reported to a gentle and caring woman so I do think it would be better for Catherine
Elizabeth would have been more financially generous to Catherine which would make that period of Catherine's life more comfortable.
Agreed, the daughter she died giving birth to was named Catherine, possibly after Catherine of Aragon (This daughter also lives here btw) and she was quite kind and friendly with Catherine in otl.
I imagine as Queen Dowager Elizabeth would have lived a quiet life (she was nothing like her mother or Margaret Beaufort), mostly in the country coming to Court for key events but otherwise disappearing from history. She may have had the opportunity to care in the country for her granddaughter Princess Mary.
Definitely, she would probably just retire maybe occasionally making the political move.
 
Henry VII may be less of an isolated, paranoid cash-grabber in his final years if he didn't suffer the back-to-back losses of Arthur and Elizabeth, but otherwise I don't think anything changes, tbh. Elizabeth was a minor political figure and she was 37 when she died, so there is very little chance for more children after ATL Catherine.


Elizabeth was reported to a gentle and caring woman so I do think it would be better for Catherine - Elizabeth likely would not have influenced policy so there wouldn't have been a clearer plan for Henry and Catherine to marry unless Henry VII thought it was politically advantageous but Elizabeth would have been more financially generous to Catherine which would make that period of Catherine's life more comfortable.
Eh, I am doubtful. Henry VII was pretty good to Catherine by the standards of the day. Yes, he used her as a pawn in negotiations with Ferdinand, but so did Ferdinand with Henry. That's just how women were used by men. There are stories of Henry trying to cheer up Catherine after Arthur's death and records of the gifts and gold he gave her as he and Ferdinand diplomatically dueled. Catherine's financial stresses had more to do with her profligacy than Henry's tightfistedness. The great stress of Catherine's life was the threat of being left as a young widow in foreign land and the issue preventing her remarriage to Prince Henry would still be whether or not Aragon was liable for the outstanding half of her dowry. Elizabeth would have little power to change that.
 
Henry VII may be less of an isolated, paranoid cash-grabber in his final years if he didn't suffer the back-to-back losses of Arthur and Elizabeth, but otherwise I don't think anything changes, tbh. Elizabeth was a minor political figure and she was 37 when she died, so there is very little chance for more children after ATL Catherine.



Eh, I am doubtful. Henry VII was pretty good to Catherine by the standards of the day. Yes, he used her as a pawn in negotiations with Ferdinand, but so did Ferdinand with Henry. That's just how women were used by men. There are stories of Henry trying to cheer up Catherine after Arthur's death and records of the gifts and gold he gave her as he and Ferdinand diplomatically dueled. Catherine's financial stresses had more to do with her profligacy than Henry's tightfistedness. The great stress of Catherine's life was the threat of being left as a young widow in foreign land and the issue preventing her remarriage to Prince Henry would still be whether or not Aragon was liable for the outstanding half of her dowry. Elizabeth would have little power to change that.
Hmm I suppose. Though I feel as though she may try to help Catherine as much as possible.
 
but otherwise I don't think anything changes, tbh. Elizabeth was a minor political figure and she was 37 when she died, so there is very little chance for more children after ATL Catherine.

Not to play "devil's advocate" here, but Elizabeth's almost-contemporary, Elizabeth of Austria, Queen of Poland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_of_Austria_(1436–1505)) had her youngest child at age 46, Elizabeth of York's own mother, Elizabeth Woodville had her youngest, Brigdet at 43, so I think that the chance for another child is higher than very little.
 
Not to play "devil's advocate" here, but Elizabeth's almost-contemporary, Elizabeth of Austria, Queen of Poland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_of_Austria_(1436–1505)) had her youngest child at age 46, Elizabeth of York's own mother, Elizabeth Woodville had her youngest, Brigdet at 43, so I think that the chance for another child is higher than very little.
I see, let's say Elizabeth is no longer able to have children at 44 then (so 1510). I could see her having two more kids in that case.
 
Not to play "devil's advocate" here, but Elizabeth's almost-contemporary, Elizabeth of Austria, Queen of Poland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_of_Austria_(1436–1505)) had her youngest child at age 46, Elizabeth of York's own mother, Elizabeth Woodville had her youngest, Brigdet at 43, so I think that the chance for another child is higher than very little.
No, I stand by "very little." Women giving successfully carrying a child to term in their 40s is really quite rare in this era. Even today, the risks associated with pregnancy increase greatly after age 35. Doing a quick scan through the list of English and Scottish consorts through the medieval era, no one has a child after age 37.
 
No, I stand by "very little." Women giving successfully carrying a child to term in their 40s is really quite rare in this era. Even today, the risks associated with pregnancy increase greatly after age 35. Doing a quick scan through the list of English and Scottish consorts through the medieval era, no one has a child after age 37.

I'd remove "very" from "very little" bc Elizabeth's own biological mother had a child after 40
 
I'd remove "very" from "very little" bc Elizabeth's own biological mother had a child after 40
And I would not 🤷‍♂️ One's parents are by no means a guarantee of what we can expect. For an example from this era, Isabella of Castile and two of her three daughters all successfully carried a half dozen or more children. Catherine did not. So, we can agree to disagree.
 
And I would not 🤷‍♂️ One's parents are by no means a guarantee of what we can expect. For an example from this era, Isabella of Castile and two of her three daughters all successfully carried a half dozen or more children. Catherine did not. So, we can agree to disagree.
Catherine fasted so much during her time in England it is believed to have damaged her capability to bear children, Isabella I, Maria and definitely Joanna didn't. So it's less of a genetic issue.
 
No, I stand by "very little." Women giving successfully carrying a child to term in their 40s is really quite rare in this era. Even today, the risks associated with pregnancy increase greatly after age 35. Doing a quick scan through the list of English and Scottish consorts through the medieval era, no one has a child after age 37.
I agree that Elizabeth probably wouldn't have another child. She had difficulty with her pregnancies and even if she survives Catherine's birth she may have some damage that prevents her from conceiving again. But there were medieval women who had children after 37. Elizabeth Woodville, Cecily Neville, Eleanor of Aquitaine and Margaret of Wessex all successfully gave birth after that age. And those are just examples of the top of my head, there are probably more.
 
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I agree that Elizabeth probably wouldn't have another child. She had difficulty with her pregnancies and even if she survives Catherine's birth she may have some damage that prevents her from conceiving again. But there were medieval women who had children after 37. Elizabeth Woodville, Cecily Neville, Eleanor of Aquitaine and Margaret of Wessex all successfully have birth after that age. And those are just examples of the top of my head, there are probably more.
Hmm I suppose, so maybe one more pregnancy at most?
 
The idea that Elizabeth’s health was delicate or that she had difficulty giving birth doesn’t seem substantiated. She died after delivering Katherine because she developed an infection. Prevent that, she lives and probably goes on to conceive once or twice more, based on her maternal lineage. However, I think it’s also worth noting that none of her sisters seem to have been half as fecund as their mother and maternal grandmother.
 
The idea that Elizabeth’s health was delicate or that she had difficulty giving birth doesn’t seem substantiated. She died after delivering Katherine because she developed an infection. Prevent that, she lives and probably goes on to conceive once or twice more, based on her maternal lineage. However, I think it’s also worth noting that none of her sisters seem to have been half as fecund as their mother and maternal grandmother.
I see, so Elizabeth's is only getting 1 more child out and that's it? Wonder how she'd affect H8's reign?
 
I see, so Elizabeth's is only getting 1 more child out and that's it? Wonder how she'd affect H8's reign?
I doubt that she’d have any affect...unless she happens to pop out another kid before Henry VII dies. I mean, she might also be able to convince Henry VII to be more lenient with his son, which in turn might temper some of Henry’s bullheadedness in the first years of his reign. But I totally see her retiring somewhere like barking abbey as soon as Henry VII dies, though she may stay with Mary until she marries.
 
I doubt that she’d have any affect...unless she happens to pop out another kid before Henry VII dies. I mean, she might also be able to convince Henry VII to be more lenient with his son, which in turn might temper some of Henry’s bullheadedness in the first years of his reign. But I totally see her retiring somewhere like barking abbey as soon as Henry VII dies, though she may stay with Mary until she marries.
Really? I thought she might convince Henry to keep trying for a son with Catheirne or something. Although I should’ve expected that (she was basically afraid of making political moves)
 
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