I know and I agree with you they stopped trying in the 1520s, I meant Elizabeth might convince Henry to keep trying in the 1520s.
I don't think Henry and Catherine stopped until she reached menopause, so I doubt that Elizabeth would need to convince him.
Oh okay, I thought they had stopped before she reached menopause.
Well, I'm just guessing that they stopped when she hit menopause. Catherine and all of her close female relatives (her mom, her sisters, even her nieces) stopped having children once they hit their early-mid thirties (32-35), which points to a declining fertility afterwards, and it lines up with when we know Catherine and Henry stopped having sex (early 1520s).
Oh ok, I always thought they stopped trying in around 1520 or 1521.
I've seen 1522 mentioned as well, and even up to 1524. But Henry also seems to have been seriously considering annulment by 1524 so that seems less likely.
I see, so what if the two stop in 1524 and Henry considers the annulment around then, might Elizabeth try and sway him away from it? (Not publicly but rather in private)
I don't think so. Elizabeth was (a) not involved in politics even privately, save for a few comments to an ambassador one time, and (b) would surely like to avoid the dynastic struggles which characterized her youth, meaning that Henry needs to have a son. If it's clear that Catherine is not going to fall pregnant again, I think she would support the annulment.
Isabella‘s death made that Henry and Catherine’s wedding almost useless politically and age difference was already a problem for Henry VIII.
Katherine Tudor was almost surely named after Katherine of York (or in alternative after Catherine of Valois or Katherine Woodville) not Catherine of Aragon.
Elizabeth Woodville was most likely two or three years younger than commonly believed but still would be 40 years old at Bridget’s birth.
Anne Boleyn was Henry’s victim in all the situation, so stop to paint her as the villain she was not as she was powerless and Mary was victim mostly of her mother’s intransigence. I believe Elizabeth would NOT try to stop her son’s fury if Catherine refuted the annulment and fight in the OTL manner, who is what will happen here as Catherine’s character and beliefs are such who she would be unwilling to compromise. If her mother had accepted the annulment Mary would remain a legitimate princess (and nobody had doubt about that).
I think Anne was something in between. She was clearly intelligent, had a mind and an agenda of her own, and wasn't afraid to step outside of the strict roles dictated by the hierarchical society of early modern England. But she also was a victim of Henry's mistreatment. Ultimately the blame for how Anne's story turned out lies solely with Henry, who was dissatisfied with a woman who was not only intransigent at times but also, and perhaps more importantly in his mind, didn't give him the son and heir that he demanded.
Agree that she was neither purely victim nor purely schemer. She was clearly groomed from a young age by her father to be used to powerful men for her family's advancement, and she was certainly powerless when compared to the might of a king. But she was also intelligent and self-possessed enough to turn a desperate situation to her own advantage.
Because that is the truth. Anne was smart, cultured, intelligent and brilliant, but she had clearly no interest in Henry before marrying him was her only option and tried to escape from him, unsuccessfully. At the same time Catherine was NOT the victim of Henry BUT the biggest responsible of her fate (and during her first widowhood her financial troubles were responsibility of her parents NOT of her father-in-law, who with an unpaid dowry and unconsumed wedding was not the one who needed to pay for her maintenance). Anne Boleyn was a impressive woman BUT she was not the one who played for the Crown (as that was NOT choice), unlike Jane Seymour, who was clearly after the crown.
Eleanor of Castile also gave birth to Edward II after she turned 40, but did have declining health after that and died after another 4-5 years. That was the last of upwards of 16 pregnancies too. That was the very first English queen consort I could think of from the top of my head to give birth after 40.
Anne was surely ambitious and extremely well educated and once she accepted who she had no other choice other than marrying Henry she wanted that Crown who was promised to her and would give her full contribution for getting it (as she was clearly the one to push Henry towards the Reformation).
