What if Princess Charlotte's son had lived?

[CDA]

All right, I've been watching Lucy Worsley BBC documentaries again, and re-watching the Elegance and Decadence documentary on the Regency period, I was struck with a question of how might the rest of the 19th Century have changed had Princess Charlotte's son by Leopold of Saxe-Coburg (later King of the Belgians) hadn't been stillborn in 1816? Charlotte lives as well, but is told by the doctors that they fear due to the difficult birth (nearly 48 hours) and other complications during the birth she can never have another child.

All of England's future is put on one little boy, who we'll call Frederick William (given she had an indifferent relationship with her father who ignored her and treated her mother poorly, she's not going to name him George).

First off I imagine that Leopold becoming King of the Belgians isn't going to happen in this timeline. Secondly I imagine that given Frederick is her only son and going to be her only child overall. He's going to be overprotected by Charlotte.

Frederick would be the darling of the British public though, considering everyone saw Charlotte favorably as the future of the dynasty (compared to her wastrel of a father), her son would have a lot of expectations and popularity from a young age.

So George IV takes the throne in 1819 when Frederick is 3; and dies in 1830 when Frederick is 14. Charlotte takes the throne as Queen in 1830 when she's 34, and Leopold is declared Prince Consort.

Who would Charlotte look to marry her son to? How would her rule affect the 19th Century?

 

[Avrorrange]

Given that Leopold's popular with the British,unlike Albert(who was disliked initially),it's quite possible he would be made King Consort instead of only Prince Consort.

 

[Don Corleone]

I'm not sure it would change much in the short term (with 200 years of butterflies we'd have a different England today, of course).

The monarchy would already have lost most of its power by the time Charlotte became queen, so there would be little or no change in terms of policy.

The Hanover men were basically a bunch of frat boys, and the conservative sexual mores of the Victorian era were a backlash against that. Charlotte witnessed the same licentious behavior as Victoria did, and she never had a close relationship with her father because of his mistreatment of her mother. Charlotte and Victoria both resented the way the men in their family treated the women, so I would imagine Charlotte would have held similar views on morality as a result.

Charlotte would likely have been more sympathetic to the poor, but that would have had limited benefit. Victoria was more sympathetic than history portrays her; she wore a white wedding dress because it was cheap and she felt it would be inappropriate to hold an extravagant wedding during difficult economic times. She also donated $5000 to Ireland during the famine, which was an amount even she would notice.

The greatest benefit to Charlotte's survival would be in Africa. Leopold becomes her prince consort or king consort, and someone else is chosen as king of Belgium. That butterflys away Leopold II.

 

[dcontreras]

All right, I've been watching Lucy Worsley BBC documentaries again, and re-watching the Elegance and Decadence documentary on the Regency period, I was struck with a question of how might the rest of the 19th Century have changed had Princess Charlotte's son by Leopold of Saxe-Coburg (later King of the Belgians) hadn't been stillborn in 1816? Charlotte lives as well, but is told by the doctors that they fear due to the difficult birth (nearly 48 hours) and other complications during the birth she can never have another child.

All of England's future is put on one little boy, who we'll call Frederick William (given she had an indifferent relationship with her father who ignored her and treated her mother poorly, she's not going to name him George).

First off I imagine that Leopold becoming King of the Belgians isn't going to happen in this timeline. Secondly I imagine that given Frederick is her only son and going to be her only child overall. He's going to be overprotected by Charlotte.

Frederick would be the darling of the British public though, considering everyone saw Charlotte favorably as the future of the dynasty (compared to her wastrel of a father), her son would have a lot of expectations and popularity from a young age.

So George IV takes the throne in 1819 when Frederick is 3; and dies in 1830 when Frederick is 14. Charlotte takes the throne as Queen in 1830 when she's 34, and Leopold is declared Prince Consort.

Who would Charlotte look to marry her son to? How would her rule affect the 19th Century?

Let's assume Edward, Duke of Kent still marries Leopold's sister and they still have little Princess Victoria of Kent. How about a marriage between Frederick and his cousin Victoria who would now reign as a Queen Consort?

 

[Avrorrange]

Let's assume Edward, Duke of Kent still marries Leopold's sister and they still have little Princess Victoria of Kent. How about a marriage between Frederick and his cousin Victoria who would now reign as a Queen Consort?

Will the Kensington system still be in place if Victoria isn't going to be Queen? IOTL,Victoria does have a rather difficult personality.Not everyone can put up with her.

 

[Mikestone8]

Let's assume Edward, Duke of Kent still marries Leopold's sister and they still have little Princess Victoria of Kent.

By no means certain. Charlotte's death triggered a whole string of royal marriages which otherwise might never have happened. See Joanne Hayle's The Royal Race of 1818.

 

[mcdnab]

Well Charlotte is going to be a focus of opposition during her father's reign and it would be interesting to see her reaction to how he treated her estranged mother in the run up to his coronation. Further on she will have to have reaction to Catholic emancipation which dominated politics in the 1820s and moving forward to her own reign and the demand for reform (which culminated in the Great Reform Act under otl's William IV).
Charlotte was popular at the time of her death another decade may of course reduce or increase that popularity (despite that I suspect her husband won't be made King Consort though he might get a dukedom) - her uncle's will feel less pressure to regularise their own family lives but the Hannover succession is still an issue for Clarence (who will be heir to Hannover from the Duke of York's death). I would expect rather like Victoria did in OTL initially Charlotte will lean towards the Whigs in opposition to her father.

 

[The_Last_Plantagenet]

The Kingdom of Hanover may go straight to Frederick William or Frederick Wilhelm when his grandfather dies.

 

[Avrorrange]

The Kingdom of Hanover may go straight to Frederick William or Frederick Wilhelm when his grandfather dies.

Hanover is passed through the agnatic line strictly.

 

[mcdnab]

Yup it does - will have a big impact going to Clarence in 1830 as it is more likely William will still grant the constitution he did in otl which annoyed his heir (his brother Cumberland who revoked it when he became King on William's death) - and with a surviving Charlotte well William might marry differently or not at all - and might have legitimate children to succeed him in Hannover (he and Adelaide had four - twin stillborn boys, Charlotte born prematurely and Elizabeth who died at 3 months)

 

[Londinium]

[QUOTE="Landmass Wave, post: 14492298, member: 100391"
The greatest benefit to Charlotte's survival would be in Africa. Leopold becomes her prince consort or king consort, and someone else is chosen as king of Belgium. That butterflys away Leopold II.[/QUOTE]

Not to mention Princess Charlotte of Belgium which makes it likely that Archduke Maximillian not only might have married someone who would NOT been interested in attempting to queen it over Cousin Victoria by egging him to accept the puppet Emperorship of Mexico but it's very likely that that particular wife would have been fertile and may have produced a son who'd have succeeded to Franz Josef's domain instead of Karl had Crown Prince Rudolf still managed to meet an untimely death.

 

[CDA]

So what seems to be the consensus is that a turn towards "morals" would have still happened without Victoria, it instead would have been attributed to Charlotte's ascent to the throne. Perhaps we would have seen the era called the "Era of Charlotte" or something similar instead of the "Victorian Era". So we'd have had a shift towards what we know of Victorian values regardless, just perhaps a few years earlier.

How she'd react to the political environment of her father's reign is a wild card, though its sure that she likely would have continued the tradition of the heir apparent favors the opposition party and serves as a figurehead for "his majesty's loyal opposition" which had been a tradition since the first Georgian King in the 1710s.

 

[CDA]

All right, so Charlotte takes the throne in 1830. Her son is 13, who is she eyeing up for potential marriages for him in the future? And what do you think Frederick William is like?

 

[Don Corleone]

Let's assume Edward, Duke of Kent still marries Leopold's sister and they still have little Princess Victoria of Kent. How about a marriage between Frederick and his cousin Victoria who would now reign as a Queen Consort?

That's a possibility for sure. It's also plausible that Victoria still marries Albert and sends her daughter to marry Alexander III (who presumably still wants to avenge his father's death).

We might see only minimal butterflies in the royal houses. Victoria is still a princess or duchess. She just gets bumped down two spots in the line of succession (plus whatever other children Charlotte has - which might not be many given her difficulty in carrying a pregnancy to term).

For that matter, if Leopold of England, or whatever they call him, is more like his grandfather than his mother, and she doesn't live to an old age like Victoria did, Victoria might still become queen at a later date.

 

[Don Corleone]

All right, so Charlotte takes the throne in 1830. Her son is 13, who is she eyeing up for potential marriages for him in the future? And what do you think Frederick William is like?

Given her own experience of dodging an arranged marriage, she would have deferred to his wishes (unless his choice of a mate disqualified him from the throne and he had no siblings).

 

[Gonzaga]

Yup it does - will have a big impact going to Clarence in 1830 as it is more likely William will still grant the constitution he did in otl which annoyed his heir (his brother Cumberland who revoked it when he became King on William's death) - and with a surviving Charlotte well William might marry differently or not at all - and might have legitimate children to succeed him in Hannover (he and Adelaide had four - twin stillborn boys, Charlotte born prematurely and Elizabeth who died at 3 months)

If Victoria's father doesn't get pneumonia - due to butterflies - and becomes the sucessor of William in Hannover, would he keep the constitution?

 

[AngelQueen]

That's a possibility for sure. It's also plausible that Victoria still marries Albert and sends her daughter to marry Alexander III (who presumably still wants to avenge his father's death).

We might see only minimal butterflies in the royal houses. Victoria is still a princess or duchess. She just gets bumped down two spots in the line of succession (plus whatever other children Charlotte has - which might not be many given her difficulty in carrying a pregnancy to term).

Victoria might not necessarily get Albert in TTL. Here she's Princess Victoria of Kent, in line for the throne, yes, but falling increasingly away from it once Frederick William marries and starts his own family. Given that she isn't the heir apparent/presumptive, it's possible that the Coburgs aren't going to see her as the ultimate prize who needs the younger son as her other half. If Victoria has a decent inheritance (which is debatable given that both of her parents were complete spendthrifts who ran up debts like it was going out of style), then the Coburgs might push for Victoria to marry Ernest, Albert's older brother. Though, that would probably only be if they couldn't convince Charlotte to marry Frederick William and Victoria together. The Coburgs were very much into uniting family interests. Frederick William is half-Coburg through his father, Victoria through her mother. Their marriage would be seen as the perfect way to reinforce Coburg interests. But if Charlotte prefers to let her son choose his own bride (within reason, of course) and FW isn't interested in cousin Victoria, then the Coburgs might settle for getting Victoria for Ernest.

Of course, given Ernest's behavior, I can't see a marriage between the two of them being overly happy. Ernest was quite the Lothario, and got an STD that he passed onto his OTL wife which likely caused her to become sterile. If they're lucky, he and Victoria might have a couple of kids before Ernest's philandering (and he would be unfaithful, there's no doubt in my mind) nipped their growing family in the bud.

 

[dcontreras]

Victoria might not necessarily get Albert in TTL. Here she's Princess Victoria of Kent, in line for the throne, yes, but falling increasingly away from it once Frederick William marries and starts his own family. Given that she isn't the heir apparent/presumptive, it's possible that the Coburgs aren't going to see her as the ultimate prize who needs the younger son as her other half. If Victoria has a decent inheritance (which is debatable given that both of her parents were complete spendthrifts who ran up debts like it was going out of style), then the Coburgs might push for Victoria to marry Ernest, Albert's older brother. Though, that would probably only be if they couldn't convince Charlotte to marry Frederick William and Victoria together. The Coburgs were very much into uniting family interests. Frederick William is half-Coburg through his father, Victoria through her mother. Their marriage would be seen as the perfect way to reinforce Coburg interests. But if Charlotte prefers to let her son choose his own bride (within reason, of course) and FW isn't interested in cousin Victoria, then the Coburgs might settle for getting Victoria for Ernest.

Of course, given Ernest's behavior, I can't see a marriage between the two of them being overly happy. Ernest was quite the Lothario, and got an STD that he passed onto his OTL wife which likely caused her to become sterile. If they're lucky, he and Victoria might have a couple of kids before Ernest's philandering (and he would be unfaithful, there's no doubt in my mind) nipped their growing family in the bud.

How does Victoria's marrying Ernst have any advantage for the Coburg's other than keeping the duchy in the family. I don't believe there ever was an advantage in real time for the Coburg's in Germany other than when Alfred, Duke of Edinburgh inherited the Duchy from his Uncle Ernest, he was the uncle of the Kaiser and brother of the Empress Frederick.

Unless it was to produce children who would one day marry into other families in Europe, the Coburg's I think would prefer a Royal marriage in Britain still. I think Leopold, Charolotte's husband would see better advantages to having both his son and niece sitting on the British throne. Charlotte adored Leopold and he would thus no doubt have some say and influence on their son's marriage and Victoria could very well be in the running.

 

[mcdnab]

I think its debatable that Kent would marry if Charlotte lives particularly if Clarence marries as in otl - he was quite happy with his mistress though his debts were mounting - with a surviving Charlotte there is also less financial incentive on the Royal Duke's to marry and produce issue as Parliament is going to not be too concerned about the succession in order to start bailing them out.
Even if Kent does marry then his daughter assuming she is born as in otl is going to be up to her eyes in inherited debt by the time she is of age to marry and also will not be that much of a catch - way down the succession and poor! In OTL after Victoria's accession Parliament was very unwilling to provide grants or cash to the Queen's cousins (which included the three Cambridge children) they argued over Albert's allowance ahead of her marriage (though Leopold had been given a very generous allowance on his marriage to Charlotte) and gave him much less than had been offered to Leopold in he end. Victoria paid her father's debts out of her own income from the civil list. Victoria if she exits is far more likely to end up like her Cambridge cousins in otl - only the eldest managed a decent marriage.

 

[dcontreras]

I think its debatable that Kent would marry if Charlotte lives particularly if Clarence marries as in otl - he was quite happy with his mistress though his debts were mounting - with a surviving Charlotte there is also less financial incentive on the Royal Duke's to marry and produce issue as Parliament is going to not be too concerned about the succession in order to start bailing them out.
Even if Kent does marry then his daughter assuming she is born as in otl is going to be up to her eyes in inherited debt by the time she is of age to marry and also will not be that much of a catch - way down the succession and poor! In OTL after Victoria's accession Parliament was very unwilling to provide grants or cash to the Queen's cousins (which included the three Cambridge children) they argued over Albert's allowance ahead of her marriage (though Leopold had been given a very generous allowance on his marriage to Charlotte) and gave him much less than had been offered to Leopold in he end. Victoria paid her father's debts out of her own income from the civil list. Victoria if she exits is far more likely to end up like her Cambridge cousins in otl - only the eldest managed a decent marriage.

I think what is not being addressed here is the role Leopold would play in all this. Remember he is a very influential husband to the future Queen Charolette who adores him.(He is what Albert was to Victoria in real time.) He is the father of the future King. He may not be the reigning monarch, but he is going to be a popular consort, as one earlier post mentioned, and if he is not "head of state" he will be head of his family, (as was Albert and even Prince Phillip today) If he has the respect of the parliament, his wife's devotion and support, his son's obedience to his father, then if he wants his son to marry his niece Victoria there is a darn good chance it could happen.