What if Princess Charlotte's son had lived?

I think what is not being addressed here is the role Leopold would play in all this. Remember he is a very influential husband to the future Queen Charolette who adores him.(He is what Albert was to Victoria in real time.) He is the father of the future King. He may not be the reigning monarch, but he is going to be a popular consort, as one earlier post mentioned, and if he is not "head of state" he will be head of his family, (as was Albert and even Prince Phillip today) If he has the respect of the parliament, his wife's devotion and support, his son's obedience to his father, then if he wants his son to marry his niece Victoria there is a darn good chance it could happen.
On the other hand,OTL Queen Victoria's mother was the classical example of a horrible in law.It wouldn't surprise me if Charlotte was vehemently against the match--despite Victoria's mother being also her sister in law.Not to mention,OTL Queen Victoria had a rather difficult personality--it wouldn't surprise me at all if neither the Prince of Wales or Charlotte liked her either.
 
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On the other hand,OTL Queen Victoria's mother was the classical example of a horrible in law.It wouldn't surprise me if Charlotte was vehemently against the match--despite Victoria's mother being also her sister in law.Not to mention,OTL Queen Victoria had a rather difficult personality--it wouldn't surprise me at all if neither the Prince of Wales or Charlotte liked her either.
This is all true but time does heal wounds. Leopold seemed to have had a lot of influence with his sister and Victoria. Even Victoria's mother eventually tamed down by her later years, due ironically to the persistence of Albert who felt Victoria had to forgive and and accept her mother.
 
This is all true but time does heal wounds. Leopold seemed to have had a lot of influence with his sister and Victoria. Even Victoria's mother eventually tamed down by her later years, due ironically to the persistence of Albert who felt Victoria had to forgive and and accept her mother.
If the Prince of Wales doesn't like Victoria--that will likely be it.A lot of royal marriages in the 19th century were less forced and royals were generally able to choose their own spouse as long as it is socially acceptable.
 
If the Prince of Wales doesn't like Victoria--that will likely be it.A lot of royal marriages in the 19th century were less forced and royals were generally able to choose their own spouse as long as it is socially acceptable.
I will concede that. But he also could like her. And if that is the case I am sure no one will object to it. And I am sure the proposal that they should consider marrying will not be ignored or scoffed at. I am sure the experience of his grandparents, George IV and his estranged wife Caroline, might make him want to be sure he likes Victoria.

It would be interesting how Victoria's character would be shaped if she was a Queen consort instead of the reigning sovereign. How might she be in a supportive role to a husband King? What type of mother night she be? Also, both she and Frederick William would be more mature than Victoria was with Albert once they succeeded to the crown. Having experienced raising a family, and supporting Queen Charolette. Remember, Leopold who actually became King of the Belgians died in 1865. I believe he was 75? If Charolette lived as long, then Frederick William and Victoria would not begin their reign until their 40's.
 
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There is certainly no question that Leopold's influence will be enormous and Charlotte is likely to consider his opinions in fact she will probably be far more willing from her accession to share more than say Victoria was on her marriage (initially she was loathe to allow Albert any say at all).
My point was that there is little incentive for the Duke's of Kent to marry in a tl with Charlotte surviving (none of the royal duke's were that bothered about providing an heir for Hannover whilst Charlotte lived despite the fact that there was no male line heir in the next generation and that it was unlikely that the Prince Regent or the Duke of York were going to produce one.)

Assuming Clarence, Kent, Cumberland and Cambridge do suddenly decide to do something about Hannover - there is no guarantee that they will marry the women they did in otl - but saying they did - there is every likelihood that Kent will remain in Germany during the 1820s - Kent chose to live there as it was a lot cheaper for him (he only returned to ensure his daughter who was going to be high in the succession was born there) and Cambridge was viceroy of Hanover for his brother. If Kent does stay in Germany he may well live longer and produce more children with his wife and he or a son of his might inherit Hannover on Clarence's death in that case.

By the time Leopold and Charlotte are considering a bride for their son (assuming George IV dies on schedule in 1830) then there are going to be other options around by the late 1830s assuming they want him married off young given the weakness of the succession - A non-german marriage might well be popular which would possibly increase the chances of Leopold and Charlotte opting for someone like Victoria - though the bride will be first cousin to her mother in law (lol). I have little doubt that the Duchess of Kent and Cambridge will both be pushing their daughter's forward as soon as possible.

In this scenario Victoria will have had a very different childhood which might have significantly changed her character also she might not have been an only child - so she might be less the domestic tyrant she turned into.
 
I think its debatable that Kent would marry if Charlotte lives particularly if Clarence marries as in otl - he was quite happy with his mistress though his debts were mounting - with a surviving Charlotte there is also less financial incentive on the Royal Duke's to marry and produce issue as Parliament is going to not be too concerned about the succession in order to start bailing them out.
Even if Kent does marry then his daughter assuming she is born as in otl is going to be up to her eyes in inherited debt by the time she is of age to marry and also will not be that much of a catch - way down the succession and poor! In OTL after Victoria's accession Parliament was very unwilling to provide grants or cash to the Queen's cousins (which included the three Cambridge children) they argued over Albert's allowance ahead of her marriage (though Leopold had been given a very generous allowance on his marriage to Charlotte) and gave him much less than had been offered to Leopold in he end. Victoria paid her father's debts out of her own income from the civil list. Victoria if she exits is far more likely to end up like her Cambridge cousins in otl - only the eldest managed a decent marriage.

I was thinking that there is a good chance that Kent might still marry because although the situation in this TL is better than in the OTL, you still have the succession invested in one young woman and her infant son. If the doctors have stated that Charlotte probably won't have anymore children, then the succession is just two deaths away from being thrown into chaos. Charlotte's health may very well have been compromised by the horrid treatment she endured during her pregnancy (the doctors were the epitome of incompetence, really) and then what strength she had was sapped by the birth of her son. Next, you have to consider that infant mortality rates were very high at this time. In OTL, when Charlotte and her baby died, Parliament offered to pay the debts of any of the princes who made real marriages and sired some more legitimate heirs. Again, the situation in this TL is much better than in the OTL because Charlotte and the baby still live, but life is fragile. Parliament may make the same offer to obtain some backup heirs. If Kent is desperate enough (as you said, his debts were mounting), he might just take the offer, and given that he was supposed to have been good friends with Leopold, it stands to reason that Leopold might point him in the direction of his widowed sister, thereby ensuring that there is a good chance that Victoria might still appear in this TL.

I think what is not being addressed here is the role Leopold would play in all this. Remember he is a very influential husband to the future Queen Charolette who adores him.(He is what Albert was to Victoria in real time.) He is the father of the future King. He may not be the reigning monarch, but he is going to be a popular consort, as one earlier post mentioned, and if he is not "head of state" he will be head of his family, (as was Albert and even Prince Phillip today) If he has the respect of the parliament, his wife's devotion and support, his son's obedience to his father, then if he wants his son to marry his niece Victoria there is a darn good chance it could happen.

This is a good point, @dcontreras. In the OTL Leopold saw himself as the director of the family fortunes, so it stands to reason that he might see himself as even more so here. He's the Prince/King Consort of England, he's the one who has made the family's fortunes. If he's wanting to keep England in the grip of the Coburg blood, he might very well want his son to marry Victoria. Their subsequent children would be half Coburg, and he'd likely ensure that his grandchildren would be raised in the Coburg way of thinking. Now, I'm not entirely sure how popular Leopold was in England (I know there were many who thought he was nowhere near good enough for the future Queen of England, including George IV), but as you said, Charlotte adored him and their son likely would have been raised to be obedient to his parents (though that doesn't necessarily guarantee that he will be - I'm sure George III and his wife raised their kids to be obedient and look how they turned out). He'd definitely have a lot going for him.
 
to be honest it is reasonable but that had been the position for several years and none of the Duke's had made any great attempt to marry when all that stood between the succession and them was Charlotte alone (given it was pretty clear that the Prince Regent was not going to have more children and the Duke of York and his wife's marriage was all but over and the infant mortality suggestion applied just as much to Charlotte in her infancy as it did with her son).

Charlotte's death pushed them to rush to marry and produce an heir for Britain - if she and the child survives then the position is pretty much as it was before her marriage with two direct heirs rather than just the one before.

Most of the Duke's were pretty unpopular with Parliament and with a succession slightly more secure than it was before Charlotte's marriage then I doubt they are going to offer any incentives in order to secure the Hanoverian succession or provide a necessary "spare" to Charlotte and her son.

Clarence was free of his long-term mistress and mother of his children but Kent wasn't he was still living with Madame de Saint Laurent as he had for almost thirty years - he only dumped her after Charlotte's death in order to marry - in this scenario I think that is a lot less likely in the short-term (longer term if he lives as he well might in this scenario he may realise he is going to be King of Hanover and might then rush to the alter and his nephew in law might suggest his widowed sister then)

I think it is more than likely that one of the Duke's may marry under pressure to secure the Hanover succession - but i doubt you will get the rush you got in OTL following Charlotte's death.

Leopold's ambition is often overstated - and much of it derived from after Charlotte's death after you could argue he had been cheated of his destiny - once he was Belgium's King he of course had the power to mediate and advance his family as he wished from a much stronger position - whilst his father in law lives though his ability to meddle in Britain is going to be limited - it would be natural for him to wish to advance his family and certainly his concern for his widowed sister and his nephews (Albert and Ernst) after the mess of his elder brother's marriage is obvious - I don't know tying his sister to Kent is in her best interests in this scenario a vague chance of being a future Queen of Hanover or regent of Hanover an even vaguer chance of being the mother of a future British sovereign - she was regent for her son in Leiningen and her income was enough to support her at that period - if there's no rush in 1818 for marriage then her age starts to count against her as well (she was 32 when she married in OTL) - it is also worth noting that the Coburgs were already on the world stage with Leopold's sister's rather miserable but certainly impressive marriage to Grand Duke Konstantin (although they were separated by the time Leopold married Charlotte)

Britain:
1) George Prince Regent
2) Charlotte
3) Baby - Prince Frederick William (though I think that name is unlikely - the decision on the name will rest with the prince regent and probably cause a row )
4) Frederick Duke of York
5) William Duke of Clarence
6) Edward Duke of Kent
7) Ernst August Duke of Cumberland
8) Augustus Duke of Sussex
9) Adolphus Duke of Cambridge

Hanover
1) George Prince Regent
2) Frederick Duke of York
3) William Duke of Clarence
4) Edward Duke of Kent
5) Ernst August Duke of Cumberland
6) Augustus Duke of Sussex
7) Adolphus Duke of Cambridge



I was thinking that there is a good chance that Kent might still marry because although the situation in this TL is better than in the OTL, you still have the succession invested in one young woman and her infant son. If the doctors have stated that Charlotte probably won't have anymore children, then the succession is just two deaths away from being thrown into chaos. Charlotte's health may very well have been compromised by the horrid treatment she endured during her pregnancy (the doctors were the epitome of incompetence, really) and then what strength she had was sapped by the birth of her son. Next, you have to consider that infant mortality rates were very high at this time. In OTL, when Charlotte and her baby died, Parliament offered to pay the debts of any of the princes who made real marriages and sired some more legitimate heirs. Again, the situation in this TL is much better than in the OTL because Charlotte and the baby still live, but life is fragile. Parliament may make the same offer to obtain some backup heirs. If Kent is desperate enough (as you said, his debts were mounting), he might just take the offer, and given that he was supposed to have been good friends with Leopold, it stands to reason that Leopold might point him in the direction of his widowed sister, thereby ensuring that there is a good chance that Victoria might still appear in this TL.



This is a good point, @dcontreras. In the OTL Leopold saw himself as the director of the family fortunes, so it stands to reason that he might see himself as even more so here. He's the Prince/King Consort of England, he's the one who has made the family's fortunes. If he's wanting to keep England in the grip of the Coburg blood, he might very well want his son to marry Victoria. Their subsequent children would be half Coburg, and he'd likely ensure that his grandchildren would be raised in the Coburg way of thinking. Now, I'm not entirely sure how popular Leopold was in England (I know there were many who thought he was nowhere near good enough for the future Queen of England, including George IV), but as you said, Charlotte adored him and their son likely would have been raised to be obedient to his parents (though that doesn't necessarily guarantee that he will be - I'm sure George III and his wife raised their kids to be obedient and look how they turned out). He'd definitely have a lot going for him.
 
If the Prince of Wales doesn't like Victoria--that will likely be it.A lot of royal marriages in the 19th century were less forced and royals were generally able to choose their own spouse as long as it is socially acceptable.

Agreed. I think it was the influence of Romanticism as a movement for the large part which helped change attitudes like that.

Case in point: Emperor Franz Josef & Sissi

Franz was supposed to marry Sissi's elder sister, but Franz liked Sissi more, so he told his mother that he would marry Sissi despite what she may say.
 
All right so Parliament starts talking about divorcing Caroline of Brunswick and George IV shortly before the coronation. I imagine that that's the first moment when Charlotte will begin by confronting her father on the subject. I'm trying to imagine how that might go, especially when she hears her father plans to keep her mother from the coronation.

What could Charlotte do beyond confrontation? I understand George IV ultimately has say over who gets to be at his coronation, but I think the divorce case might cause a break in the royal family that'd be rather tough to deal with publicly. After all, the last time there was a royal divorce, the children of the divorced royal couple were considered out of the succession for a time (though later brought back in). At the very least if Charlotte isn't sticking up for her mother for her mother's sake, she might have to for herself. The idea was dropped in Parliament due to how unpopular an idea it was (Caroline was beloved by the public). I am wondering how Charlotte might take advantage of that popularity to her advantage in the situation--or wouldn't she?

I do think that that might cause her to start really opposing her Father far more actively and getting involved politically though.
 
The idea was dropped in Parliament due to how unpopular an idea it was (Caroline was beloved by the public). I am wondering how Charlotte might take advantage of that popularity to her advantage in the situation--or wouldn't she?

I do think that that might cause her to start really opposing her Father far more actively and getting involved politically though.

Charlotte was even more popular than Caroline. She was the Princess Diana of the 19th century. She also has a rebellious nature (such as blowing kisses to George's political rivals at the opera). Given the diminished power of the monarchy, Parliament is likely to follow popular opinion and side with Caroline and Charlotte. If not, the voters replace them with a Parliament that will.
 
Couple of points:

1) William of Clarence and at least Ernst of Cumberland are still going to marry (possibly to their OTL spouses) since their marriage arrangements (if not their bride) were pretty much predating Charlotte's death
2) Charlotte's son is NOT marrying Victoria even if she's born, for several reasons: 1) a domestic/cousin match ruins the chance of a foreign match/alliance (for all the Romanticism of the 19th century marriages realpolitik still had its place); 2) she's dirt poor. Mom and dad (as mentioned) spent money like water, and here she doesn't have a civil list to pay off the debts. So, unless dad becomes king of Hannover, she'd be a poor catch. And if he does, she might make a decent marriage with one of her OTL suitors: Alex II of Russia, Chris. IX of Denmark, Alex. of the Netherlands; rather than with Coburg. In the event that she ends up as eldest child of the king of Hannover she might be entertained as a prospective queen of England, but otherwise, no; and 3) Uncle Leopold. William IV described him as being as slippery as a barrelful of eels. Maybe, maybe not. But this is the man who was called the "Nestor of Europe" and was only eclipsed by Napoléon III and Bismarck. He'll be affectionate to his niece, but his eye will be to expanding the Coburg fortunes. So, he might have a grander match in mind. (for both of them)
3) The Coburgs.OTL Ernst I took issue with his elder son because Ernst II did nothing to advance the family's fortunes through marriage. He wanted him to marry either a French princess (Clémentine) or a Russian grand duchess. And he didn't dislike Albert's match but saw it more as Leopold's doing than his own. It's not unlikely that Bismarck's comment of the Coburgs being Europe's stud farm will still be made, but it will be made in a different world (perhaps one with a Beauharnais Belgium and a Coburg Greece?) (from Aronson's biography: The Coburgs of Belgium)
 
Couple of points:

1) William of Clarence and at least Ernst of Cumberland are still going to marry (possibly to their OTL spouses) since their marriage arrangements (if not their bride) were pretty much predating Charlotte's death
2) Charlotte's son is NOT marrying Victoria even if she's born, for several reasons: 1) a domestic/cousin match ruins the chance of a foreign match/alliance (for all the Romanticism of the 19th century marriages realpolitik still had its place); 2) she's dirt poor. Mom and dad (as mentioned) spent money like water, and here she doesn't have a civil list to pay off the debts. So, unless dad becomes king of Hannover, she'd be a poor catch. And if he does, she might make a decent marriage with one of her OTL suitors: Alex II of Russia, Chris. IX of Denmark, Alex. of the Netherlands; rather than with Coburg. In the event that she ends up as eldest child of the king of Hannover she might be entertained as a prospective queen of England, but otherwise, no; and 3) Uncle Leopold. William IV described him as being as slippery as a barrelful of eels. Maybe, maybe not. But this is the man who was called the "Nestor of Europe" and was only eclipsed by Napoléon III and Bismarck. He'll be affectionate to his niece, but his eye will be to expanding the Coburg fortunes. So, he might have a grander match in mind. (for both of them)
3) The Coburgs.OTL Ernst I took issue with his elder son because Ernst II did nothing to advance the family's fortunes through marriage. He wanted him to marry either a French princess (Clémentine) or a Russian grand duchess. And he didn't dislike Albert's match but saw it more as Leopold's doing than his own. It's not unlikely that Bismarck's comment of the Coburgs being Europe's stud farm will still be made, but it will be made in a different world (perhaps one with a Beauharnais Belgium and a Coburg Greece?) (from Aronson's biography: The Coburgs of Belgium)

1. I agree the duke's of Clarence and Cumberland as well as Kent will still marry because Charlotte cannot inherit Hanover under the Salic law and succession of the German kingdom must go through one of them.

2. I still root for a match with Victoria of Kent, but I do not agree that she is a poor catch. After all, she is one of a few legitimate grandchildren of George III, which makes her a Princess of the United Kingdom, and I agree that her uncle Leopold, who will have influence in the reign of a Queen Charolette, could see the benefit for the Coburg's and his wife's kingdom if some European nation chooses to have as a bride for one of their princes or kings, the grand daughter of George III, the first cousin of the British Queen Charolette, and the niece of one of the King's of Hanover who ever that might be. (William IV was fond of Victoria even if Cumberland was not.) (And if her father lives, he too will most likely die as a King of Hanover himself before being succeeded by Cumberland.)
 
2. I still root for a match with Victoria of Kent,)

Would she even exist? It would only need the smallest of butterflies to turn her into Prince Victor instead. And given that Kent dies when she/he is only two years old, there's only a very narrow window for a second child.
 
2. I still root for a match with Victoria of Kent, but I do not agree that she is a poor catch. After all, she is one of a few legitimate grandchildren of George III, which makes her a Princess of the United Kingdom, and I agree that her uncle Leopold, who will have influence in the reign of a Queen Charolette, could see the benefit for the Coburg's and his wife's kingdom if some European nation chooses to have as a bride for one of their princes or kings, the grand daughter of George III, the first cousin of the British Queen Charolette, and the niece of one of the King's of Hanover who ever that might be. (William IV was fond of Victoria even if Cumberland was not.) (And if her father lives, he too will most likely die as a King of Hanover himself before being succeeded by Cumberland.)

Except here she might not be. If the chances of her inheriting the British throne are negligible - they weren't OTL (the duchesses of York and Clarence had as yet produced no children), hence the term 'the Great Baby Race'. With the pressure somewhat removed, Adelaide might have at least two surviving children (besides Charlotte being premature, I haven't read anything that would presuppose her not being able to survive). So, with a negligible chance for inheriting the British throne, the duke of Kent won't hurry to have his child born in England. Also, he won't stay in England, which means he won't catch the pneumonia that killed him - since he caught it, according to the stories, waiting around in wet boots for a packet of Hannoverian newspapers. Here, the newspapers are on his doorstep, so he'll be able to take his boots off and be nice and warm by the fire :p
 
1. I agree the duke's of Clarence and Cumberland as well as Kent will still marry because Charlotte cannot inherit Hanover under the Salic law and succession of the German kingdom must go through one of them.

2. I still root for a match with Victoria of Kent, but I do not agree that she is a poor catch. After all, she is one of a few legitimate grandchildren of George III, which makes her a Princess of the United Kingdom, and I agree that her uncle Leopold, who will have influence in the reign of a Queen Charolette, could see the benefit for the Coburg's and his wife's kingdom if some European nation chooses to have as a bride for one of their princes or kings, the grand daughter of George III, the first cousin of the British Queen Charolette, and the niece of one of the King's of Hanover who ever that might be. (William IV was fond of Victoria even if Cumberland was not.) (And if her father lives, he too will most likely die as a King of Hanover himself before being succeeded by Cumberland.)

Who says Drina would be an only child? Yeah the evidence is stacked against her dad (if you don't believe that he left quite a few bastards in Canada) and time is against her mom, but she could just as easily get a sibling or two before it's run out completely. Not only that, but Kent was fine with a daughter OTL because any child born of an approved marriage could succeed to the throne. Hannover has Salic Law, so you can be sure he's going to be trying to knock up his wife for a boy ASAP if Drina is still born and the duchess of Clarence only has her daughters.

As to Victoria being a good catch, maybe if you squint. But it's your TL so if you want Drina to end up as Queen(-Consort) of Britain, then by all means, go ahead.
 
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