Which would hurt both sides (some kind of trade war would follow too I think) and solve nothing (it would not cause Poland to renounce 1/3 of territory). Also, it means Russian sphere extending to the Oder and Russian troops close to Berlin.
Which would hurt both sides (some kind of trade war would follow too I think) and solve nothing (it would not cause Poland to renounce 1/3 of territory). Also, it means Russian sphere extending to the Oder and Russian troops close to Berlin.Don't need to do that, but Germany could say veto any Polish hopes of EU or NATO membership in perpetuity.
With that premise, it would be more like the US losing Boston.Because it was the birthplace of Prussia. It would be like the US losing Washington DC.
This would drive Poland right into Russia's arms and make Russia stronger. Probably wouldn't have been considered a bad thing pre-Putin.Don't need to do that, but Germany could say veto any Polish hopes of EU or NATO membership in perpetuity.
This would drive Poland right into Russia's arms and make Russia stronger. Probably wouldn't have been considered a bad thing pre-Putin.
And how exactly would the Allies prevent that if the masses of Germans were demonstrating regularly for exactly that.Then they don't get reunited. As it was several Western Europe leaders were quite apprehensive. A German airing nationalistic complaints is going to provoke very unfortunate (at least for them) reactions
Opinions are a reason to get banned here?He was also relatively pro-apartheid, or at least interested in minimizing its sins.
And how exactly would the Allies prevent that if the masses of Germans were demonstrating regularly for exactly that.
Roll in with their tanks like the Soviets did in Czechia?
Some, yes. I advice you to quickly read the rules to see what is and what isn't allowed.Opinions are a reason to get banned here?
IIRC that obviously was a hot topic in Western Germany with many Heimat-vertriebenen from those former territories now living there, remembers these territories had been German for centuries. Actually regaining and not being confortable with the settlement opposed on them, rightfully so due to their actions, are two different things.
OTOH where would an expansionist East Germany want to expand? Pomerania and Silesia are mostyly owned by Warsawpact ally Poland and for Western Germany they face not only the BRD, but the whole of NATO and Moscow urging them to calm down...
Opinions are a reason to get banned here?
That is probably why around every third user in the old threads I read before signing up was already banned by the time I read it.
And how exactly would the Allies prevent that if the masses of Germans were demonstrating regularly for exactly that.
Roll in with their tanks like the Soviets did in Czechia?
Declare war to the reunited Germany, that still had massive weapons stockpiles from the cold war and huge number of trained military personnel?
If you think they could have prevented reunification just by saying no your are deluded.
Yes they could have tried something, but it wouldn't have been pretty.
It would have had to involve violence and casualties.
And it wouldn't have been guaranteed to be successful either.
See Vietnam or Afghanistan.
This would drive Poland right into Russia's arms and make Russia stronger. Probably wouldn't have been considered a bad thing pre-Putin.
Yes, most had fled for the Red Army. It doesn't mean that many of the expected to be able to return at one point. Though when Poland got these territories, to compensate them for the loss of their eastern territories to the Soviet Union. I suspect, those hopes were dashed. I think sooner than the 1970's was impossible, many of the Heimat-Vertriebenen, who were adults, when this occurred, were still alive. Not to mention Western German youth starting to ask difficult questions to older generations.Sure. I would argue that the outlines of a settlement were visible at least as early as the 1970s and that these would include an acceptance by unified Germany of the new eastern borders.
In any case, the citizenship policy of the Federal Republic, which gave anyone with any sort of a claim to German citizenship a right to pick it up, would undermine irredentism. If remnant German minorities had stayed, maybe they could have been anchors for a future irredentism. IIRC most had left.
I very much doubt there could be expansionism. The Soviet Union forced the DDR and Poland to sign the Treaty of Zgorzelec early on, and it also showed no interest in supporting border revisionism. More likely would be an alternate settlement of the German frontier where Stalin let Germany keep more territory in the east.
Yes, most had fled for the Red Army. It doesn't mean that many of the expected to be able to return at one point. Though when Poland got these territories, to compensate them for the loss of their eastern territories to the Soviet Union. I suspect, those hopes were dashed. I think sooner than the 1970's was impossible, many of the Heimat-Vertriebenen, who were adults, when this occurred, were still alive. Not to mention Western German youth starting to ask difficult questions to older generations.
As for the DDR, that was response to another reply. No rearming West Germany was in strategic interest of the USA and Western Europe, though the Western masterstroke was to get West Germany get back on its' feet economically, the Wirtschaftswunder (the Economic miracle). No I doubt, that those puppets from Moscow would have gone against the will of the Soviet Union.
I am in doubt about wether it would be a pariah. There are many more states in the world than the US, the UK, France and Russia."Despite the grants of general sovereignty to both German states in 1955, full and unrestricted sovereignty under international law was not enjoyed by any German government until after the reunification of Germany in October 1990. Though West Germany was effectively independent, the western Allies maintained limited legal jurisdiction over 'Germany as a whole' in respect of West Germany and Berlin. At the same time, East Germany progressed from being a satellite state of the Soviet Union to increasing independence of action; while still deferring in matters of security to Soviet authority. The provisions of the Treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany, also known as the "Two-plus-Four Treaty", granting full sovereign powers to Germany did not become law until 15 March 1991, after all of the participating governments had ratified the treaty. As envisaged by the Treaty, the last occupation troops departed from Germany when the Russian presence was terminated in 1994, although the Belgian Forces in Germany stayed in German territory until the end of 2005. "
(from Wikipedia
So East Germany was in fact a Soviet satellite state, and the Russians had a large military presence there.
The Western allies also had significant forces in Germany.
Now 'm not saying they're going to war immediately, but the diplomatic response will be "No, you have to accept to Oder-Neisse border, if you don't you're not going to be reunified, and according to the current treaties you can't." Which BTW is basically what was codified in OTL's treaty on the final settlement of Germany. Germany agreed on the Oder-Neisse border in that treaty. If that treaty isn't signed, the allies won't grant Germany it's final sovereignity. Germany can resist and reunify regardless. In the worst case it escalates to war. In the best case Germany is an international pariah.
I think you misunderstood me.I suppose that they can demonstrate all they want, but a reunifying Germany that was hinting at an interest in fighting an aggressive war outside of its frontiers to try to seize lands that were not part of any German state for a couple of generations sure could be met by a military response. Frankly, given how Germany in our timeline not only had militaries geared towards defensive war but was substantially occupied already, it is difficult to see how this war would not end in a failure.
Of course Germany could be kept from conquering lands outside of its frontiers.
There are indeed more states than the US, the UK, France and Russia. The issue is these four states have been fighting Germany in WW2 (and WW1), don't want a rematch and have a lot of influence in Europe (and have boots on the ground in Germany). Other neighbouring states like Denmark, the Netherlands, Belgium, Austria, Poland and Czechoslvakia would be worried too. So Germany is alienating all their neighbours.I am in doubt about wether it would be a pariah. There are many more states in the world than the US, the UK, France and Russia.
The latter might probably even welcome a Germany not aligned with the West and try to cooperate with it in a quest to regain its lost influence in eastern Europe.
That would be the case if Russia still was the Superpower of the 1960s-80s.There are indeed more states than the US, the UK, France and Russia. The issue is these four states have been fighting Germany in WW2 (and WW1), don't want a rematch and have a lot of influence in Europe (and have boots on the ground in Germany). Other neighbouring states like Denmark, the Netherlands, Belgium, Austria, Poland and Czechoslvakia would be worried too. So Germany is alienating all their neighbours.
I'm pretty sure Russia wouldn't be thrilled aligning with a Germany that wants East-Prussia (Kaliningrad Oblast) back and in general wants to push their border closer to Russia.
Because that worked so well in 1939?That would be the case if Russia still was the Superpower of the 1960s-80s.
By 1990 Russia was in a position of weakness themselves.
Thus to settle the differences and reach a compromise might be seen as beneficial.
At least temporarily.
Exactly that.And how exactly would the Allies prevent that if the masses of Germans were demonstrating regularly for exactly that.
Roll in with their tanks like the Soviets did in Czechia?
Declare war to the reunited Germany, that still had massive weapons stockpiles from the cold war and huge number of trained military personnel?
If you think they could have prevented reunification just by saying no your are deluded.
Yes they could have tried something, but it wouldn't have been pretty.
It would have had to involve violence and casualties.
And it wouldn't have been guaranteed to be successful either.
See Vietnam or Afghanistan.