What could Austria Hungary could of done to fix its Over Diversity and National instability in its Ethnic army, and government.

[Qastiel]

Maybe. I've posited elsewhere that such a drawn out war could be the shot in the arm needed to resolve a lot of Austria's political-will related deficiencies. Less because of removing the Hungarian elite or anything like that and more just because it would necessitate higher military spending and a more amicable settlement for Hungary's minorities -and the Hungarians themselves.

I’m not necessarily opposed to this but how do you habdle the rising debt issues that Austria was facing during their martial law period of occupying Hungary. From what I’ve seen even OTL without compromising with Hungary Austria would’ve gone bankrupt.

How do you manage higher military spending while also breaking the Hungarians to heel and maintain Austrian sovereignty in action/avoiding the ottoman pitfall?

The Hungarians weren’t going to be an easy foe for the Austrians to defeat by themselves so a couple of years of extra war just means more destruction and spending which makes the threat of default even more pressing for Austria.

 

[Bones101]

This is not going to work. If anything, it could backfire.

For starters, minorities definitely wanted their languages to be fully represented in higher education and public life. This was particularly the case for the Czechs, who were not only a numerous and powerful groups but who had understandable historical sensitivities about their language's past marginalization. Charles University was split into separate sections based on language. Other groups may have had less active, but this is a consequence of issues including their numbers and their levels of humans development.

Beyond that, even if you did get significant language shift, that in itself hardly guarantees that the people involved will identify ethnically with the language group or that they will be seen as coethnics by others. The example of Ireland should come to mind. Meanwhile, the example of Hungarian Jews, who despite enthusiastically Magyarizing themselves were first discriminated against in the interwar era and then sent off to the death camps by radical nationalists, shows how even sincere assimilation does not necessarily create people seen as equals to the old stock. (For that matter, the case of the Irish also shows that.)

Minority languages would be recognized. They would only learn German as a second language. German wouldn't be forced on anything, it would just be taught in schools as a second language with the idea being that it would slowly be adopted more and more as time goes on.

The idea isn't to make them identify with other ethnic groups, there's no need for that, it's just to make it so more and more people in the empire have some sort of common ground that would foster some kind of general feeling of unity. I'm not proposing germanization.

 

[rfmcdonald]

Minority languages would be recognized. They would only learn German as a second language. German wouldn't be forced on anything, it would just be taught in schools as a second language with the idea being that it would slowly be adopted more and more as time goes on.

Limiting the presence of minority languages to the lower levels of education is a very limited sort of recognition. The net effect would be to marginalize these languages relative to German and Magyar, and to some extent their native speakers. (Creating situations where speakers of minority and minorities languages can only acquire full educations if they learn another language creates burdens on them, especially if the language used is that of a once-dominant minority.

The Czechs, who were consistently clear in wanting their language to be fully equal to German in education and public life, would simply not go for that. They would recognize, correctly, that this language policy would not work in their interests.

The idea isn't to make them identify with other ethnic groups, there's no need for that, it's just to make it so more and more people in the empire have some sort of common ground that would foster some kind of general feeling of unity. I'm not proposing germanization.

My understanding is that assimilation was imagined, for instance when there was talk above of the proportion of Magyars rising from half the Hungarian population to 70% if those policies were maintained.

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

I’m not necessarily opposed to this but how do you habdle the rising debt issues that Austria was facing during their martial law period of occupying Hungary. From what I’ve seen even OTL without compromising with Hungary Austria would’ve gone bankrupt.

How do you manage higher military spending while also breaking the Hungarians to heel and maintain Austrian sovereignty in action/avoiding the ottoman pitfall?

The Hungarians weren’t going to be an easy foe for the Austrians to defeat by themselves so a couple of years of extra war just means more destruction and spending which makes the threat of default even more pressing for Austria.

I included the "-and the Hungarians themselves" bit for a reason. A clear, costly, and hard fought victory of Vienna over Budapest will require an earlier (as in almost immediate) compromise because there wouldn't be the "luxury" of occupying Hungary for nearly 2 decades. At the same time, an earlier compromise negotiated soon after Hungary's defeat (rather than after a long costly occupation and a catastrophic defeat by external powers) could yield a deal more favourable to Vienna and the Hungarian minorities. Reconciliation, or at least normalization, is unavoidable in such a scenario.

 

[czareason]

Cry

Either this or pray that a powerful but incompetent nation launches a brutal invasion, seeking to destroy the empire treating its subjects with equal contempt forcing the groups to unite under Hapsburgs to survive and their victory over said nation creates unity and a common identity.

 

[Monter]

With various parts of the non Hungarians parts of the Empire supporting actively or passively Hungarian Independance, because they knew if the Hungarians won, they will also be able to escape from the Habsbourgian prison.

What? Hungary fought "rebellions" in Slovakia, Transylvania and Croatia because Slovaks, Transylvanians and Croats would rather be autonomous inside the Habsburg Empire than join the Hungarians. The fact the Empire indeed feel to multiple ethnic breakaway states might give you the impression every non German-Magyar was unanimously anti-Habsburg, but every ethnical relation with the monarchy was heterogenous and complex, just because Czechs, Croats, etc. wanted to increase their status and self-determination doesn't mean separatism was the only option they held, before the military, social and economic collapse in WW1 many had a lot of faith in the monarchy.

 

[holycookie]

I think if Austria has more of Germany they should be more stable. Bavaria alone created German dominance, from there Vienna had the strength to begin to put the nation in order.

 

[Bones101]

Limiting the presence of minority languages to the lower levels of education is a very limited sort of recognition. The net effect would be to marginalize these languages relative to German and Magyar, and to some extent their native speakers. (Creating situations where speakers of minority and minorities languages can only acquire full educations if they learn another language creates burdens on them, especially if the language used is that of a once-dominant minority.

The Czechs, who were consistently clear in wanting their language to be fully equal to German in education and public life, would simply not go for that. They would recognize, correctly, that this language policy would not work in their interests.



My understanding is that assimilation was imagined, for instance when there was talk above of the proportion of Magyars rising from half the Hungarian population to 70% if those policies were maintained.

As I said, German would not be forced onto anything. It wouldn't be forced into local government for example. People would be encouraged to learn through the school system but it would never be forced into the average person's life or government. The federal crown lands would govern in their own language. My idea with learning German is just to create some kind of common ground within the Austrian half of the empire, and more people understanding each other is only a good thing. German culture, or anything besides the language, would not be taught in non German schools. Higher education would be primarily offered in the crown lands primary language. In my mind there would be laws protecting the crown lands native language. I don't see why German can't be promoted as a way to just understand each other. It doesn't always have to be assimilation.


I am however proposing assimilation for Hungary, Hungary was already wildly successful in assimilation, so just let it play it's course.

 

[Qastiel]

I included the "-and the Hungarians themselves" bit for a reason. A clear, costly, and hard fought victory of Vienna over Budapest will require an earlier (as in almost immediate) compromise because there wouldn't be the "luxury" of occupying Hungary for nearly 2 decades. At the same time, an earlier compromise negotiated soon after Hungary's defeat (rather than after a long costly occupation and a catastrophic defeat by external powers) could yield a deal more favourable to Vienna and the Hungarian minorities. Reconciliation, or at least normalization, is unavoidable in such a scenario.

Okay but the Austro-Hungarian compromise itself was unpopular with the Hungarians. I don’t see how you can thread the needle of coming to an amicable settlement between the Hungarians and the minorities of the Hungarian crown when even the OTL compromise was still unpopular with the Hungarians and resulted in their intransigence within the union.

A more drawn out war cripples the Hungarian part of the empire because the Hungarians won’t go quietly without Russia helping the Austrians crush the Hungarians. The Hungarians historically did well against larger Austrian forces until Russian support arrived. Putting down the Hungarians therefore will result in damage to the Austrian-Hungarian empire which may not result in the same overwhelming debt caused by Hungary’s occupation but will likely hamper Austrian attempts at greater military investment.

What settlement do you suggest will appease both the Magyars and the Minorities even if we assume the extra years of not too unequal civil war won’t devastate the Hungarian half of the empire.

 

[Jürgen]

I think that splinting up AH in ethnic “homogenous” homelands would be a mistake and be the way to collapse. The empire would be better of with province based on geography and then simply enforce bilingualism/trilingualism or minority rights in those provinces. So Bohemia as example would be a province with Czech and German as official languages and all school children learning the other language as second language while in Austrian Silesia, German, Polish and Czech would be official.

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

What settlement do you suggest will appease both the Magyars and the Minorities

One established at the negotiating table in 1850 or so. I don't think things would be nearly as bad were it not for Vienna's sore winner behaviour (executing people who'd secured amnesty from Russia and the perpetual occupation) which also undermined the minorities who'd fought for it. The lack of normalization and the artificiality of their defeat meant the Hungarians never even had the option to come to terms with the reality of their defeat.

Not sure what the deal would look like, but changing the entire context around it is not nothing.

Putting down the Hungarians therefore will result in damage to the Austrian-Hungarian empire which may not result in the same overwhelming debt caused by Hungary’s occupation but will likely hamper Austrian attempts at greater military investment.

The war effort itself will require that Vienna gets over its chronic fear of taxation. Fortunately, spending on armaments, transportation infrastructure, and soldier's wages all feeds right back into the economy.

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

I think that splinting up AH in ethnic “homogenous” homelands would be a mistake and be the way to collapse. The empire would be better of with province based on geography and then simply enforce bilingualism/trilingualism or minority rights in those provinces. So Bohemia as example would be a province with Czech and German as official languages and all school children learning the other language as second language while in Austrian Silesia, German, Polish and Czech would be official.

an oldie but a goodie

 

[fraa Jad]

A relevant link: "Habsburg Landsturm: Alien Officers and ‘Army Slavic’".

In III/Landsturm Infantry Regiment 18, as in most wartime formations, such intricate arrangements were pipe dreams. For officers, a decent grasp of the German language was essential, as it was the medium for communication with the various levels of the Fortress Command and with other units. Within the battalion’s mess, German was also widely spoken, although, to annoy Major Zipser, the Czech officers made a special point of speaking their mother tongue to each other. Communication with the men was, kindly put, a challenge. Some officers may have gotten by with “Army Slavic,” a most peculiar military Esperanto blending Slavic grammar with German military terminology. Thus, for example, the battalion’s Poles could be ordered to antretować (from the German antreten—to form up) on parade, and would then narugować (nachrücken—to move up) to the front, before forming a szwarmlinia (Schwarmlinie—firing line). Others who spoke only German relied on the battalion’s few Jews to act as intermediaries. Still, even with goodwill, careful listening, and much imagination on all sides, frontline command of Landsturm troops was difficult.

 

[rfmcdonald]

As I said, German would not be forced onto anything. It wouldn't be forced into local government for example. People would be encouraged to learn through the school system but it would never be forced into the average person's life or government. The federal crown lands would govern in their own language. My idea with learning German is just to create some kind of common ground within the Austrian half of the empire, and more people understanding each other is only a good thing. German culture, or anything besides the language, would not be taught in non German schools. Higher education would be primarily offered in the crown lands primary language. In my mind there would be laws protecting the crown lands native language. I don't see why German can't be promoted as a way to just understand each other. It doesn't always have to be assimilation.

You seem not to understand that this would be assimilation. Keeping Czech out of higher education would be perceived, and rightly so, as marginalizing Czech language and culture. Simply having a language dominate without having an associated culture come with is simply impossible. This would be an excellent way to discredit the whole idea of Austroslavism that kept the late empire going.

As for Hungarian assimilation, all that I can say is that the post-1918 secessions of every territory with a non-Magyar majority as soon as Budapest lost power is proof that it did not work. The coup de grace is the way the Jews, who were interested in assimilating, ended up getting first persecuted and then sent to the death camps when they were no longer convenient. Hungarian assimilation did not just work, it failed.

 

[Bones101]

You seem not to understand that this would be assimilation. Keeping Czech out of higher education would be perceived, and rightly so, as marginalizing Czech language and culture. Simply having a language dominate without having an associated culture come with is simply impossible. This would be an excellent way to discredit the whole idea of Austroslavism that kept the late empire going.

As for Hungarian assimilation, all that I can say is that the post-1918 secessions of every territory with a non-Magyar majority as soon as Budapest lost power is proof that it did not work. The coup de grace is the way the Jews, who were interested in assimilating, ended up getting first persecuted and then sent to the death camps when they were no longer convenient. Hungarian assimilation did not just work, it failed.

I've given it more thought. Restricting native languages to early education wouldn't work as nicely as I thought. So how about each ethnicity continues to learn their own language, throughout their entire education, but similar to how American students might start learning Spanish in 5th grade and onwards, we just do that with German? They would still take say, Czech, as their primary language class, but let's say twice a week students would take German. And once they hit the European equivalent of high school, they would take it every day as most Americans do with a second language in HS. I am basing this off my experience with a second language in America as you can probably tell. If the main focus remains on the ethnicity's native language, I think what I have just proposed should work.


As for Hungary, I still think assimilation would work. I don't think the reaction of minorities who had just been through the worst war in human history and 4 years of near starvation is anything to judge the success of a program in peacetime.

 

[rfmcdonald]

I've given it more thought. Restricting native languages to early education wouldn't work as nicely as I thought. So how about each ethnicity continues to learn their own language, throughout their entire education, but similar to how American students might start learning Spanish in 5th grade and onwards, we just do that with German? They would still take say, Czech, as their primary language class, but let's say twice a week students would take German. And once they hit the European equivalent of high school, they would take it every day as most Americans do with a second language in HS. I am basing this off my experience with a second language in America as you can probably tell. If the main focus remains on the ethnicity's native language, I think what I have just proposed should work.

My issue with that is that is not unlike what was tried already, and that this would require an arguably more sensitive language policy than the default policy in Cisleithenia of having education be in German and introducing minority-language educational institutions at the behest of local authorities.

https://ww1.habsburger.net/en/chapters/school-policies-and-language-teaching

As for Hungary, I still think assimilation would work. I don't think the reaction of minorities who had just been through the worst war in human history and 4 years of near starvation is anything to judge the success of a program in peacetime.

Why? What signs do we have that assimilation worked on a broad scale? Did Slovaks identify themselves as Slavophone Hungarians, say?

Beyond that, the fact that the Hungarian Jews who did respond enthusiastically to Magyarization ended up being turned upon, first in the interwar era when they were subject to discrimination and then in the Second World War when they were ultimately delivered to genocide, seems to suggest that Magyarization did not make "true Magyars" from the Hungarian nationalist perspective. Even their subtle contemporary differences were too much.

 

[Fehérvári]

Why? What signs do we have that assimilation worked on a broad scale? Did Slovaks identify themselves as Slavophone Hungarians, say?

I do remember reading that there was a strong division over the issue within Slovak society at the time. One side advocated or atleast accepted integration and modernisation, while the other opposed them and praised the Slovak rural way of life. The latter built up Slovak national identity based on ruralism and religion.

Beyond that, the fact that the Hungarian Jews who did respond enthusiastically to Magyarization ended up being turned upon, first in the interwar era when they were subject to discrimination and then in the Second World War when they were ultimately delivered to genocide, seems to suggest that Magyarization did not make "true Magyars" from the Hungarian nationalist perspective. Even their subtle contemporary differences were too much.

It must be noted though that the "world" of the Hungarians did get smaller. As such, smaller differences that did not matter prior became more apparent. Furthermore, the overrepresentation of Jewish or Jewish-heritage Hungarians in the government of the Hungarian Soviet significantly fueled anti-semitism among the miserable post-WW1 Hungarian population, especially since the Soviet was partially blamed for Trianon (especially for the loss of Burgenland).

What I'm trying to get to is that OTL's increasing Hungarian anti-semitism in the post-WW1 era occured in a specific context, and attitudes from then cannot simply be projected to pre-war attitudes. Integration was working but it was recent. The war and its consequences were just simply too great of a shock and undid it.

With this being said, I don't think that continuing active Magyarisation policies would have been productive, quite the opposite. The census of 1910 already showed that aggressive policies bore no fruit. The government just before the war was already set to begin talks with representatives of minorities to address some of their grievances, AFAIK. The ruling party was in need of securing the support of minorities to keep its dominant position in the legislation and government as the gradually widening suffrage was expected to empower democrats, socialists and Hungarian nationalists.

 

[rfmcdonald]

I do remember reading that there was a strong division over the issue within Slovak society at the time. One side advocated or atleast accepted integration and modernisation, while the other opposed them and praised the Slovak rural way of life. The latter built up Slovak national identity based on ruralism and religion.

Possibly assimilation could have occurred if everything had begun earlier, if you had a Hungarian state that had begun its nation-building process a century earlier. Hungary become autonomous too late for the Slovaks to become the Hungarian equivalent of the different Occitanophone groups in southern France, potentially a distinct nationality but never getting there.

Against this, my impression is that Orthodox Christian groups, like the Romanians and the Serbs, tended not to assimilate for reasons including the religious differences.. Even if the Slovaks did Magyarize, it does not at all follow that these other groups would follow suit, especially given how Romanians and Serbs had nation-states to look to.

It must be noted though that the "world" of the Hungarians did get smaller. As such, smaller differences that did not matter prior became more apparent. Furthermore, the overrepresentation of Jewish or Jewish-heritage Hungarians in the government of the Hungarian Soviet significantly fueled anti-semitism among the miserable post-WW1 Hungarian population, especially since the Soviet was partially blamed for Trianon (especially for the loss of Burgenland).

What I'm trying to get to is that OTL's increasing Hungarian anti-semitism in the post-WW1 era occured in a specific context, and attitudes from then cannot simply be projected to pre-war attitudes. Integration was working but it was recent. The war and its consequences were just simply too great of a shock and undid it.

Which is a fair point. It is just that, when there was a major shock such as was arguably bound to come somehow, Magyarization did not work.

With this being said, I don't think that continuing active Magyarisation policies would have been productive, quite the opposite. The census of 1910 already showed that aggressive policies bore no fruit. The government just before the war was already set to begin talks with representatives of minorities to address some of their grievances, AFAIK. The ruling party was in need of securing the support of minorities to keep its dominant position in the legislation and government as the gradually widening suffrage was expected to empower democrats, socialists and Hungarian nationalists.

What was not really working for the Slovaks was not working at all for the Croats or the Serbs or the Romanians, agreed.

 

[Fehérvári]

Possibly assimilation could have occurred if everything had begun earlier, if you had a Hungarian state that had begun its nation-building process a century earlier. Hungary become autonomous too late for the Slovaks to become the Hungarian equivalent of the different Occitanophone groups in southern France, potentially a distinct nationality but never getting there.

Hungary has always been autonomous, or better said independent from the other countries and lands of the Habsburgs though. The only exception was 1849–1860 (Austrian annexation) and partially after 1867 (common ministries). With that being said, yes, if the modernisation and promotion of the Hungarian language started a century earlier, then the assimilation of language minorities could have gone further, its exact extent depending on education levels and economic developments. Still, the existing demographic conditions still would have presented a near unsurmountable challenge.

Against this, my impression is that Orthodox Christian groups, like the Romanians and the Serbs, tended not to assimilate for reasons including the religious differences.. Even if the Slovaks did Magyarize, it does not at all follow that these other groups would follow suit, especially given how Romanians and Serbs had nation-states to look to.

All of those groups did assimilate, but almost exclusively in areas where they were already in minority and in urban areas. Regions where Magyars were barely present or not at all and where the actual non-Hungarian speaking group formed one large geographic bloc, those regions were the ones that remained unassimilated no matter what. Many of these areas were rather rural and lacking in wealth, which reflected on education quality (language learning in this case) as well. They were unattractive locations to settle in with few job opportunities, so the Hungarian language couldn't be introduced in such manner either. Given these, there was simply no reason to know the language in these kind of areas.

Which is a fair point. It is just that, when there was a major shock such as was arguably bound to come somehow, Magyarization did not work.

I would argue the war IOTL wasn't exactly the kind of run of the mill "major shock" that occurs every 20 years or so, but something far greater which wasn't granted to happen (on this impact level). After all, the country did experience periods of economic slump and the proletariat did not exactly prosper in better years either (as it was custom at the time in Europe) yet the country did not experience any notable anti-semitic outbursts prior to the war. The only expection was the Tiszaeszlár Affair of 1882-'83 which actually resulted in anti-semitism getting discredited and banished from mainstream politics.

What was not really working for the Slovaks was not working at all for the Croats or the Serbs or the Romanians, agreed.

Yes, but the failure of assimilation doesn't necessarily mean lack of integration, just to be clear. For example roughly 40% of the voters were non-Magyars at the time, and those voters mostly voted for the Liberal Party (the governing party through most of the Compromise Era) and its iterations, favouring them over even their own national parties.
Here's a link to maps of election results of 1861–1910
And an ethnic map for comparison

 

[Nuraghe]

personally to "save" the Habsburg empire, I would suggest a pod in the 18th/19th century, which would see slight changes brought about in the reigns of Maria Theresa and her successors, with the aim of making changes that stabilize the evolution of the state , first of all I would keep Latin as the main language of the Empire ( given that as various ambassadors of the time reported, knowledge of the language was quite widespread in the Habsburg territories even among the lower classes, albeit at an elementary level ) secondly I would try to realize the Habsburg plans to expand their power base in the Reich ( either through the evergreen Bavaria-Netherlands exchange or with more successful imperial reforms, which would have seen a slight expansion of the archducal possessions in Swabia ) finally
I would avoid or if I really can't, I would mitigate most of Joseph II's policies, which caused more damage than anything else, more due to how they were presented and imposed on the population than anything else ( see the revolts in Hungary, the Austrian Netherlands and Lombardy )

but also the maintenance of the post-1718 Balkan conquests, in particular Bosnia, which would represent an obvious third ethnic-political pole for the Empire in the future, which could be an easy ploy to resolve the issue of the southern Slavs in favor of Vienna ( also because I can see many people being settled in the area Croats, Germans and other predominantly Catholic ethnic groups who consolidated imperial control in the territory )


also because I believe that the Empire collapsed more due to the extreme situation in which it found itself (WW1) than due to real internal ethnic problems, after all most of the latter were easily tackled by the central government, especially if you use appropriate policies ( which would definitively resolve the problems with the Bohemian aspirations ( 1 ) and the "Yugoslavian" question )


1 ) who, like the Magyar magnates, were the real thorn in the side of the dynasty, given that with their political grievances they were capable of paralyzing the Austrian government ( both due to their economic and demographic weight ) but also because they had "exasperating" ethnic claims given that they considered the Slovaks as an uncultured subgroup of theirs ( this put them in conflict with Buda ) and then there was the whole question of the Germans residing in Wenceslas' crown and what to do with them ( it is true that in a period in Vienna they had thought to make a decree ordering all German-speaking residents of the kingdom to gather in the southern Sudetenland and then agree with Prague on a separation in exchange for the green light with part of Slovakia ( in turn allowing the permanent reunification of Transylvania to the lands of the crown of Saint Stephan ) , but this would have created more problems than anything else, and so it was quickly set aside )