What alternate history ideas you wish they were used more often?

DocBen

Banned
I have seen the argument that WW2 is the most fictional part of OTL due to some of the leaders names
Stalin = Man of Steel
Churchill = (like) Church-hill (Anglican-english churchs and shit like that)
Charles de Gaulle = From Gaul (France)
The monarchies collapsing and the Nazis and the Communists coming out of nowhere and taking power was completely unexpected. I am a history buff of this time period specifically. I logically understand what happened, why it happened, how it happened. And yet when I take a step back, it still doesn't make sense to me, even if my mind has been convinced 200% that such a scenario is possible.

And if you would consider Hitler, my pun is Hit-ler, or one who hits, or an aggressive leader. There have been theories that Hitler was part Jewish, so he really pulled a Taboritsky move there, by hating Jews if he was part Jewish himself. Which is not surprising, given that several leaders of OTL EU countries appear to hate their own people.

I'm now convinced that OTL is not in fact the canonical timeline. That's it. We are living in a timeline branching off from the main timeline. You could think of it as a paradox timeline, if you will.

Literally a Lenin quote by the way

That is perhaps the only thing that he was right about. Which leads me to think that he knew about the theory of how timelines splinter in times of chaos, which we only "officially discovered" by modern physics in the 21st century.

That can only mean two things:
  • Of course, one can reach similar conclusions philosophically, without having any knowledge of physics.
  • Or you can reject the philosophy, and take the meme explanation instead! Something something Red Alert timeline manipulation.
WDcuanBn
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I'm now convinced that OTL is not in fact the canonical timeline. That's it. We are living in a timeline branching off from the main timeline. You could think of it as a paradox timeline, if you will.
Curiously I recently read in a DC comics meme community: Apparently-Probably all universes in Marvel and DC could think they are Earth 616/Prime Earth, or basically that they are the first/main earth-timeline-universe-continuity.

And there was one time a proposal in this forum (not remember the thread) to make the most "canon" TL (always the most probably or logical events) - the question is how to make such a thing, limited by our own perceptions of OTL...
The monarchies collapsing and the Nazis and the Communists coming out of nowhere and taking power was completely unexpected. I am a history buff of this time period specifically. I logically understand what happened, why it happened, how it happened. And yet when I take a step back, it still doesn't make sense to me, even if my mind has been convinced 200% that such a scenario is possible.
A bit thinking too much maybe.
 

DocBen

Banned
And there was one time a proposal in this forum (not remember the thread) to make the most "canon" TL (always the most probably or logical events) - the question is how to make such a thing, limited by our own perceptions of OTL...
I reckon that there is no "canon" timeline. OTL sure isn't. There are countless various parallel timelines, literally an exponential number of them. Which one is "canon" is difficult to say, because they differ from each other in various aspects. It would be impossible to pick among the different aspects, and even then would be heavily biased.

Although if I were to make such a totally biased attempt, I would say that the "canon" timeline is where Russia is still a monarchy. The Russian Revolution is where the timeline went off the rails, although it would not be the first time that happened though. I would say that the Soviet Union ruled by Communists is one such "paradox timeline". Although it could as easily have been Hyperborea ruled by esoteric pagans who are literally opening portals to the spirit world.

During the lockdowns I was browsing reddit, where there are apparently entire reddit communities there of people who claim to have originated from a different parallel timeline, and got "shifted" into OTL on accident. There are like hundreds of such stories. Of course some of them are probably creative writing, but only some of them. The others more genuine ones really make you think about the nature of reality. It's quite the rabbit hole.
 
The Russian Revolution
I have a book about the Russian Revolution, dont remember the author and I dont want to search it right now among the lot I have (it isn't in my library, it is in boxes) - argues that the entire XX century is an answer to the Russian Revolution so the fact you reached this, isn't that surprising, at least from some point of views
Of course even this understanding could be a little simplistic
 
"Persian"-Safavid Russia

I had this idea due to this painting some time ago by the way:
0450bee754ea30ead3089062a96e3ad9fdfb40b1.jpg


"The artist Tahir-Zade Behzad painted the painting "The Red Army" in 1945.
The painting was solemnly transferred by the artist to the Soviet House of Culture in Tehran, from where it entered the museum.
The famous Iranian artist Hussein Tahir-Zade Behzad (1887-1962), was born in Tabriz, studied painting in Tbilisi, and then in Istanbul, where he also restored manuscripts from the collection of Topkapi Palace. Returning to Tehran in 1929, he founded a school of miniature painting by order of Reza Shah Pahlavi. His manner of painting combines work in the traditional miniature genre, with an abundance of ornamentation and decorative inserts, with rather large sizes of the characters depicted, and love for multi-figured scenes.
The master strove to create a style based on the imitation of the Safavid miniature.
In a similar vein, the canvas donated to the museum was decided.
The action takes place in a fantasy desert landscape. In the background, behind A. Hitler, B. Mussolini is depicted, behind Stalin, W. Churchill and F. Roosevelt. All heroes are dressed in the clothes of medieval Persian knights, with arrows and swords.
The elements of the costume testify to the ideological affiliation - for example, Stalin's shalvars are embroidered with images of a hammer and sickle, Hitler - a swastika. Around the cartouches are poems in Farsi dedicated to the valor of the Red Army.
On the arrow, which Stalin pierces Hitler, the inscription - "Red Arrow".
The frame was originally made specifically for the painting and decorated with Soviet symbols."
 
You don't get my point. My point is: since when was OTL a yardstick for judging the realistic of other timelines? I think that there are more diverging timelines than converging. I also think that there are more dystopian timelines and utopian ones. There are more crazy worlds than sane ones. It takes more of an effort to build than to destroy. I know one thing about humanity, their tendency to be brutal, destructive, and not so very sane, and it takes a ginormous amount of effort for any civilization to possibly overcome these inherent downward trends.

OTL is looking pretty ASB as well. A small part of the world, Western Europe, being able to conquer almost every single other civilizations, in the Americas, Africa, and Asia from the 16th to 19th centuries? Totally Europe wank.

And if you had told me about the Great Reset a mere 5 years ago, I would have dismissed it as very unlikely, but look where we are now! Well now I know that mass death scenarios, once regarded as ASB scenarios, may happen quite a bit more often than we maybe thinking. There are decades when more things change than in the preceding several hundred years, that's for sure.

I am also within the category of people who think that the collapse of the Soviet Union without even putting up much of a fight, would be extremely unlikely. If you would have mentioned this during the cold war, it would be regarded as ASB or American wank. So OTL is already looking ASB, by OTL standards! In my opinion something like Red Alert would have been more likely.

What you said about Red Flood and TNO being unrealistic in your opinion, my answer would be the following. In periods of stability you would see very little change. In periods of instability or chaos, you have a much greater chance of timeline disturbances. If you are familiar with chaos theory, you would know that a small little disturbances, such as you killing a butterfly, would have drastically diverging effects the farther forward in time you go. So in periods when "Pax Romana" is disturbed, you will have a splintering of timelines. Indeed you have more different timelines splintering in periods of instability than in periods of stability. The start of the 20th century was one such period, which is where Red Flood and TNO came from. The end of the 20th century and start of the 21st century were another such period. And the 2020s are a third such period of instability. And each such period of instability generated diverging timelines.



PS:
I personally believe that the Multiverse is akin to a computer simulation which traces out all possible occurring scenarios. Meaning that as long as it's not prohibited by the laws of physics, it will happen. Michio Kaku wrote in his book, "everything that isn't prohibited is mandatory". Meaning that the Multiverse will eventually simulate even very unlikely timelines, to come into being. The implication here is that every single timeline that we write, even the Draka ones, exists somewhere in the Multiverse, and is no less real than OTL, complete with living souls. These conjectures are in line with modern theories of physics. Einstein was wrong, God does indeed "play dice" with the world, and every event, no matter how unlikely, will occur. The Multiverse isn't even logically coherent. It doesn't have to be though. There is no anthropocentric principle that reality adheres to, to conform with the skeptic's expectations of what reality should be like.
I have seen the argument that WW2 is the most fictional part of OTL due to some of the leaders names
Stalin = Man of Steel
Churchill = (like) Church-hill (Anglican-english churchs and shit like that)
Charles de Gaulle = From Gaul (France)
This brings me to one of the TL ideas I wanted to be used the most

"The most plausible timeline"
"The likeliest world"

Basically get a bunch of AH fans together
Take the Wikipedia pages on every year and century starting from when the modern Homo Sapiens came up(because the focus of AH is on humans and saying "oh the Big Bang was unlikely lets not have it" would be boring) and go through them on a chronological order trying to always have the most likely/plausible(but not necessarily the more predictable) outcome prevail every time and have the butterflies keep accumulating until we have an extremely alien world that nonethless once you read it's history it makes much more sense than our own and is a better candidate for "The Original Canon TL"

Of course always using alt-versions of characters that pop up every year/century after each POD because logically they wouldnt be born but we still would need material to work with so using historical analogues that arent full OCs makes the most sense to me
 
"The most plausible timeline"
"The likeliest world"

Basically get a bunch of AH fans together
Take the Wikipedia pages on every year and century starting from when the modern Homo Sapiens came up(because the focus of AH is on humans and saying "oh the Big Bang was unlikely lets not have it" would be boring) and go through them on a chronological order trying to always have the most likely/plausible(but not necessarily the more predictable) outcome prevail every time and have the butterflies keep accumulating until we have an extremely alien world that nonethless once you read it's history it makes much more sense than our own and is a better candidate for "The Original Canon TL"

Of course always using alt-versions of characters that pop up every year/century after each POD because logically they wouldnt be born but we still would need material to work with so using historical analogues that arent full OCs makes the most sense to me
Sounds good 👍
 
This brings me to one of the TL ideas I wanted to be used the most

"The most plausible timeline"
"The likeliest world"

Basically get a bunch of AH fans together
Take the Wikipedia pages on every year and century starting from when the modern Homo Sapiens came up(because the focus of AH is on humans and saying "oh the Big Bang was unlikely lets not have it" would be boring) and go through them on a chronological order trying to always have the most likely/plausible(but not necessarily the more predictable) outcome prevail every time and have the butterflies keep accumulating until we have an extremely alien world that nonethless once you read it's history it makes much more sense than our own and is a better candidate for "The Original Canon TL"

Of course always using alt-versions of characters that pop up every year/century after each POD because logically they wouldnt be born but we still would need material to work with so using historical analogues that arent full OCs makes the most sense to me
When do we want to start?
 
This brings me to one of the TL ideas I wanted to be used the most

"The most plausible timeline"
"The likeliest world"

Basically get a bunch of AH fans together
Take the Wikipedia pages on every year and century starting from when the modern Homo Sapiens came up(because the focus of AH is on humans and saying "oh the Big Bang was unlikely lets not have it" would be boring) and go through them on a chronological order trying to always have the most likely/plausible(but not necessarily the more predictable) outcome prevail every time and have the butterflies keep accumulating until we have an extremely alien world that nonethless once you read it's history it makes much more sense than our own and is a better candidate for "The Original Canon TL"

Of course always using alt-versions of characters that pop up every year/century after each POD because logically they wouldnt be born but we still would need material to work with so using historical analogues that arent full OCs makes the most sense to me
That's... actually an extremely good idea!
 
When do we want to start?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_decades,_centuries,_and_millennia


10th millenium BC(as it is the earliest millenium the Wiki provides resources for) we'd start the worldbuilding, laying ground for the future human civilisations by making sure the trends that "make more sense" follow in a more "overview" fashion as there's too little info to get very in-dept into it

Then the TL proper starts at the 40th Century BC, for the same reason, it is the earliest century available
Going from one century to the other, again without too much detail

Then when we reach the 21 Century BC we start going year by year(as its where the Wiki starts cataloguing individual years) and in the 18 Century BC decade by decade as well, getting as detailed as possible with the info provided by the articles and our own personal knowledge & corrections from the community

And we would end the timeline when we reached the Second Millenium AD
Our Millenium
In the year 2000(or 2001 if you wanna be very specific) when the 21 Century starts as its the perfect time to wrap it up since we would have started the TL(yearly) for real at the 21 Century BC

Tldr:
If the Chaos TL was the "climbing the Mount Everest" of Alternate History, this collaborative project would be us as a community trying to climb the Mount Olympus mountain in Mars without protective equipment, which would be utterly awesome
 
If the Chaos TL was the "climbing the Mount Everest" of Alternate History, this collaborative project would be us as a community trying to climb the Mount Olympus mountain in Mars without protective equipment, which would be utterly awesome
Dont know what is the Chaos TL, but the idea of climb Mount Olympus in Mars sounds fun.
 
Dont know what is the Chaos TL, but the idea of climb Mount Olympus in Mars sounds fun.
A TL where this one poster tried to craft a world without Gengis Khan and the mongol invasions
Which he self described as "climbing the Mount Everest of AH"
It has since both been criticized for its use of parallelism(very turtledovian) and also praised as a staple of the genre, like a must-read
 
10th millenium BC(as it is the earliest millenium the Wiki provides resources for) we'd start the worldbuilding, laying ground for the future human civilisations by making sure the trends that "make more sense" follow in a more "overview" fashion as there's too little info to get very in-dept into it

Then the TL proper starts at the 40th Century BC, for the same reason, it is the earliest century available
Well, I wouldn't change too much from what happened OTL that far back. The development of towns, agriculture and metallurgy are poorly understood. That agriculture emerges in the Levante is pretty obvious, it is the most suited to it in the region, being wetter than Egypt and Mesopotamia. And both China as well as the Andes had to struggle with much more extreme weather. That said, we might be able to move the discovery of writing here, so that Sumer isn't the first literate civilization in history anymore. How likely this would be is up for debate though.
 
Well, I wouldn't change too much from what happened OTL that far back. The development of towns, agriculture and metallurgy are poorly understood. That agriculture emerges in the Levante is pretty obvious, it is the most suited to it in the region, being wetter than Egypt and Mesopotamia. And both China as well as the Andes had to struggle with much more extreme weather. That said, we might be able to move the discovery of writing here, so that Sumer isn't the first literate civilization in history anymore. How likely this would be is up for debate though.
Rainfall was not so much the driver to agriculture in the Levante as suitable plants.

As for writing, that is dependent on a civilisation that can exploit it. Some who could never do. The two most notable examples are the Andean civilisations and the pre-Roman cultures in northern Europe who did build cities.
 

mspence

Banned
A more successful Republic of China with or without Chiang Kai-Shek.
My own idea would be that Mao dies during the Long March, although he still becomes a martyr to his followers without him the Chinese communists become divided. A rump Communist state does develop in Mongolia, which is supported by the Soviet Union.
 
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